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Cider Digest #1644
Subject: Cider Digest #1644, 16 July 2011
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1644 16 July 2011
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
carbonating (Michael McClatchey)
sweetened carbed cider (hroth521@comcast.net)
Re: Cider Digest #1643, 11 July 2011 (Bill Rhyne)
Re:pumps (Charles McGonegal)
In response to Sean Thompson's recent "Carbonation/Mouthfeel " posting (R...)
Re: Cider Digest #1643, 11 July 2011 (garysohn@gmail.com)
Spindle Trees ("Rich Anderson")
Re: Cider Digest #1643, 11 July 2011 (Lauren Shepard)
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
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Subject: carbonating
From: Michael McClatchey <mmmcclatchey@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 12:59:57 -0400
Sean wrote:
- ---------------
Everyone,
I have a great cider which I want to make carbonated. I tried sweetening with
saccrin and added just enough sugar to get it to carbonate in the bottle. But,
they taste in my opinion was not as good. I am wondering if I sweeten with
sugar. Then wait a few days and pastuerize to kill the yeast, will the bottles
maintain carbonation? Has anyone tried this?
Please advise
Thanks,
Sean
- -----------------
I bottle condition cider, but it takes me more like a couple of months to
build up enough pressure. I use approximately a teaspoon of white sugar for
a 750ml Champagne bottle, and I get great carbonation, although not 100% of
the time. I don't do riddling and degorgement (sp? accents?) and you can
detect a faint yeast nose in the bouquet. Not a big one, but there.
I've had still cider without added sugar carbonate in the bottle after 5
years, but I've never pasteurized and never had a gusher or a blown bottle.
Your mileage may vary.
I'm kegging in cornies now, and I like it a LOT better. Not just the work,
but the flavor and mouthfeel are superior. I don't think I'll ever go back
to bottling, except Champagne bottles look so good, I'll probably do a few,
not the 7 cases I did last time. I just threw out all my beer bottles, after
spending endless hours getting the labels off with a bench grinder. 8^)
Best to all,
Michael McClatchey
"Michigan Breakfast" sparkling hard cider
------------------------------
Subject: sweetened carbed cider
From: hroth521@comcast.net
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:21:42 +0000 (UTC)
- ----- Original Message -----
I have sweetened with honey, bottled and tasted every few days until carbed
where I want. I then heat in a water bath (7 gallon pot) a few bottles at
a time to 160 deg F for 20 minutes. Let cool. This allows me to have no
exploding bottles (make sure your bottles are designed to take pressure -
I use returnable, no screw top beer bottles) and sweetened carbed cider. I'm
a newbie so I can't tell you how pasteurization changes the flavor over
a long period of time. Also, my first attempt involved heating to 180
degrees F and resulted in exploding bottles.
Howard
- ------------------------------
> Subject: Carbonation/Mouthfeel issue
> From: Sean Thompson <sthompson@jahcc.com>
> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 08:26:26 -0700 (PDT)
Everyone,
I have a great cider which I want to make carbonated. I tried sweetening with
saccrin and added just enough sugar to get it to carbonate in the bottle. But,
they taste in my opinion was not as good. I am wondering if I sweeten with
sugar. Then wait a few days and pastuerize to kill the yeast, will the bottles
maintain carbonation? Has anyone tried this?
Please advise
Thanks,
Sean
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1643, 11 July 2011
From: Bill Rhyne <bill_rhyne@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 11:53:18 -0700 (PDT)
RE: Cider Digest #1643, Sean Thompson question regarding
pasteurization/carbonation
It has now been 10 years (2001) since our last batch of sparkling hard
cider was made and we pull a bottle from our cider library periodically
to taste. It still has the sparkle/carbonation from secondary fermentation
in the bottle.
The process: We added unfermented apple juice, instead of sugar, to the
batch to blend with the fermented cider before bottling, then bottled
the mixture, waited till there was the right flavor/sparkle combination,
pasteurized the cider in the bottle with the cap on the bottle, and then
labeled the product. Leave space for the cider to expand when it is heated
up. We did not heat the cider more than 150 degrees Fahrenheit. We just
wanted to kill the yeast and stop fermentation in the bottle.
If you get a chance to visit a champagne cellar, you will see the same
aging process with the wine aging in the bottle with a bottle cap on
the bottle. When the winery is ready to sell the champagne, they do the
disgorging process and put the cork/wire hood on. We did not do that
process but sold the cider with the bottle cap still on the bottle in
order to maintain the natural aroma and sparkle.
Bill Rhyne
of the former Rhyne Cyder experience
Subject: Carbonation/Mouthfeel issue
From: Sean Thompson <sthompson@jahcc.com>
I am wondering if I sweeten with
sugar. Then wait a few days and pastuerize to kill the yeast, will the bottles
maintain carbonation? Has anyone tried this?
Please advise
Thanks,
Sean
------------------------------
Subject: Re:pumps
From: Charles McGonegal <cpm@appletrue.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 15:02:44 -0500
A problem I've encountered with centrifugal pumps is loss of priming due
to evolved CO2, especially during the first racking. I've occasionally
had to throw a valve on the outlet to reduce flow/increase pressure to
keep the gas dissolved. More often I just pick a flexible impeller pump.
Dick, I know you'd -like- to see a cheaper suitable pump on the market,
but is it a reasonable expectation? Or is it like wishing for beer priced
estate cider?
Pumps are as much critical equipment as tanks. And a cidermaker is likely
to want to have several different kinds to handle different jobs. Key
equipment costs. I'm also looking at getting a new pump, but a progressive
cavity pump big enough to destone peaches costs more than the still the
peaches would go into. Talk about a long payback time. <sigh>
Sent from my iPhone
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
Artisan Cider & Spirits
(262)496-7508=
------------------------------
Subject: In response to Sean Thompson's recent "Carbonation/Mouthfeel " posting
From: Richard Schoeler <rcschoeler@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 13:57:16 -0700 (PDT)
Hi Sean!
I have tried the artificial sweetened/bottle conditioned approach and agree
with you that artificial sweeteners are all significantly enough inferior
to sucrose to look for a different approach. For personal/non-commercial
use, my solution is to bottle with sugar and/or juice to whatever degree
is desired for carbonation and sweetness and, when carbonation reaches
the desired level, place it in a converted chest freezer at 32 degrees F.
Obviously this method is not appropriate for larger/commercially focused
production. For that I experimented with crown-capped partially conditioned
bottles and hot bath pasteurization as described in Andrew Lea's book on
(page 98) - from a 1976 Canadian publication:
"Place the bottle upright on the bottom rack of a canner or double boiler,
and cover the bottles completely with water. Fill one uncapped bottle
with water and raise it from the bottom so that the neck is above the
water level. Put a thermometer into a cork so that the bulb is at the
center of the bottle when the cork is in place resting on the neck of the
bottle. Heat the water until the thermometer in the test bottle registers a
temperature of 150°F (66°C); pasteurization is then complete. Remove the
bottles from the water and place them on their sides on several layers of
newspaper. After 2 or 3 min placece the bottles in warm water and leave
them at room temperature until the cider is cool."
I actually held the temp at 150 F for 5 minutes for a bit of cushion.
(Note: It is easy to overshoot the temp - turn off the heat 5 degrees
before you reach your target.) I also increased bottle head space to ~
150% of normal. I did three cases this way, had no bottle bombs and only
one cap that was "passing gas" during the process - to which I reapplied
the capper then returned to the bath. These bottles have been stored at
~ 60 degrees F for several months now with no contamination or excessive
foaming upon opening. Andrew and others mention a slightly cooked flavor
but I perceive it more as a hint of caramel - and like it!. However it
is described, it's better than artificial sweetener IMO - WAY better.
Obviously there are many tales related to the significant dangers from
exploding bottles so caution is urged. Eye protection, heavy clothing
and gloves are called for.
Richard S.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1643, 11 July 2011
From: garysohn@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 22:16:48 +0000
I too would like to know about using crabapples in cider blends.
------------------------------
Subject: Spindle Trees
From: "Rich Anderson" <rhanderson@centurytel.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 21:33:33 -0700
With no experience growing apples, all of our trees on M9 and M26 rootstocks
were planted on a 5' x 12' grid, supported with a three wire trellis with a
dripline. The branches were spread horizontal. While this was initially
successful, over the years the horizontal spread did not work well, with
many varieties overflowing their allotted space, creating a pruning
challenge as well as any work requiring between row access with equipment to
spray, mow and pick.
In hindsight I wished that I had trained using a more traditional approach,
training the lower scaffolds to fold up within their space. Much of this
depends on the trees growth habits, I think you will find that many cider
varieties will not do well on a spindle with the scaffolds wanting to grow
upright, particularly the tip bears and vigorous growers, they just seem to
fight all attempts of spindle training. The spindle approach seems to work
well with spur bearing trees and varieties which do not have vigorous growth
habits.
I hope some of the more experienced orchardists will elaborate on this
subject.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1643, 11 July 2011
From: Lauren Shepard <lauren@sheltonbrothers.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 10:43:22 -0600
In response to Melissa's question regarding selling fermented cider in the
US from Canada:
There are MANY hoops to jump through legally before an alcoholic beverage
can be imported into the US, including very specific label requirements
(that vary based on the ABV of the cider), tax considerations, FDA
registration, as well as a required US importer. Any cider that Dennis
tried locally from Canada would have had to go through a licensed importer,
and then a licensed wholesaler in WA state. It could not have been sold
directly to retail. Our federal government has a complicated 'three-tier
system" that requires that all alcohol pass from supplier to wholesalers
(different in each state, sometimes the state IS the wholesaler), and
sometimes it and then through a retailer/restaurant/bar before being sold to
consumers.
I couldn't speak to fresh juice or apples, but can tell you that if you're
ever considering export of fermented cider your first step would be to
contact a US importer. Feel free to contact me with questions as they come
up! lauren@sheltonbrothers.com
Cheers,
Lauren Shepard
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1644
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