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Cider Digest #1634
Subject: Cider Digest #1634, 30 May 2011
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1634 30 May 2011
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #1633, 23 May 2011 market for cider in the Pacific (denni...)
Agitator nozzle for Fimco sprayers (Alan Yelvington)
Concentrate (Andrew Lea)
Cider quality and brettanomyces? (Andrew Lea)
CD 1631 and 1633 (Drew Zimmerman)
Re: Cider quality... (Dick Dunn)
Re: ...brettanomyces? (Dick Dunn)
NOTE: Digest appears whenever there is enough material to send one.
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1633, 23 May 2011 market for cider in the Pacific
From: denniswaller@comcast.net
Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 18:07:31 +0000 (UTC)
Claude wrote "Personally, I think the cider market needs some "Grand cru"
that could drive the prices up a little. Because, at 6.95$ a litre, there
is no way you can earn your living making true cider
Answer: I don't dispute your conclusion but I don't think that is going
to happen in the North Puget Sound region. The point I was making is the
local cider makers are competing with several local microbreweries that
produce a wide variety of excellent ales and lagers, some of which are
cask conditioned. I don't think those cideries will convince a significant
number of those local beer drinkers to switch to cider with the product
they now offer. The critical question is "Who will buy this cider, and
at what price?" I assumed the potential buyers are local beer drinkers,
because the best local beers are sold almost exclusively on draft and
rarely bottled. If the market is sophisticated wine drinkers who are
willing to pay $60 a bottle for a "Grand Cru" then producing cider may
be a successful business. But this region is 90 miles north of Seattle
and there are very few people up here who have the financial resources,the
sophisticated palate and are willing to pay that much for cider.
In short I question the business plan assumptions on which these cideries
were established.
Dennis Waller denniswaller@comcast.net
PS I have several questions for well established cider makers in regions
where they have a large local market. 1) Are your clients primarily beer
drinkers who expect to pay approxiately the same per pint for cider as for
beer or are they comprised of affluent and sophisticated wine drinkers? 2)
Is you cider sold primarily on draft like beer or in bottles like wine?
------------------------------
Subject: Agitator nozzle for Fimco sprayers
From: Alan Yelvington <alany@semparpac.org>
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 10:23:37 -0400
My Fimco 40 gallon 3-point sprayer arrived
and I am getting happier each day.
http://www.fimcoindustries.com/3point_sprayer_40gallon.html
(Prices vary on the web, but I got a great
price from Gempler's.)
There is room for improvement that the end
users has to deal with on their own.
My #1 priority was to improve circulation in
the tank using the pump bypass outlet. The
factory outlet is just an open port that does
little or nothing to promote circulation
depending on your pressure setting.
I replaced the Femco 11/16" fitting with a
3/8" to 1/2" barb that I got from the local
big-box store. I threaded on a Lechler
agitator nozzle (pn. 500.262.53.02) and it
made a world of difference! I strongly
recommend this modification for anyone using
a solution that wants to separate in the
tank. The nozzle is an induction style
design that really moves the solution around
with very little water pressure. (You can
order the nozzle directly from Lechler
http://www.lechlerag.com/ with a phone
call.) Here's a data sheet from another
vendor:
http://www.kramp.com/shop/action/product_60_-1_620747_10201_15295_0_Tank+Injecto
r+Agitator+nozzle++Lechler
The 3/8" replacement fitting has a small
shoulder and doesn't seat well against the
tank, so I enlarged the hole in a nylon
washer. Using the nylon washer eliminated
the need for a rubber gasket. The nozzle
threads on inside and eliminates the need for
a nut on the inside. You'll need a helper to
do this since Femco put the fill hole on the
opposite side of the tank as the pump. (Doh!)
I also added vertical booms to the spray arms
that required me to reinforce the support
brackets. I'll cover those later.
R,
Al
------------------------------
Subject: Concentrate
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@harphill.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 20:41:17 +0100
On 23/05/2011 17:34, Alex Kroh asked:
>
> and how is a concentrate produced
> without imparting a cooked flavor?
High-vacuum thin-film flash evaporation. The juice is in contact with a
hot surface for only a few seconds and the resulting concentrate is
speedily cooled from 50C to 4C and is kept at that temperature till
needed. Or should be ;-)
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford, UK
www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Cider quality and brettanomyces?
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@harphill.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 20:41:25 +0100
On 23/05/2011 17:34, Steven Edholm wrote:
>
> Now all of these ciders had one defect in common, but in varying degrees.
> Since I have no one to point to this or that flavor and say, yep thats it,
> I'm tentatively assuming that this is what is called mousy and caused by
> Brettanomyces.
Mousy cider may be caused by Brettanomyces but equally by some strains
of Lactobacilli. I find it difficult to believe that you can have had so
many mousy commercial ciders, especially from both sides of the pond,
unless you are hypersensitive to this taint (detection of it is
genetically / oral pH related). Proper use of SO2 and exclusion of air
after fermentation are two good ways of minimising it. Mousiness takes
a few seconds to show and is persistent for some time and is like the
smell of a mouse cage or the taste of popcorn / crackers. Everyone in
the wine and cider business is very well aware of it because it is
impossible to eradicate once formed and can cause serious commercial
losses. Most people (if they can detect it) find it repulsive. The
causative agents are acetyl pyrrole and alkyl tetrahydropyridines
synthesised from amino acids.
There is another flavour common to ciders, and generally regarded as
desirable at least here in the UK and even more so in France. That is
the flavour known as 'old horse', 'spicy' or even 'barnyard'. It is
generally produced by lactobacilli during the malo-lactic fermentation
but is not so often found on your side of the pond since it is more
characteristic of 'bittersweet' cider apples which are rare in North
America unless imported. At high levels it could be regarded as a taint
(and is related to the 'Brett' defect known to winemakers) but is
generally seen as a positive quality factor and here in the UK it would
be marked highly by cider specialists. The causative agents are alkyl
phenols such as ethyl phenol and ethyl catechol derived from phenolic acid
breakdown.
It may be that you just don't like it. You will have to accept that lots
of people do.
Overall, to answer your question on sanitation, correct addition of SO2
before fermentation and later during storage is the answer, and pH
meters are cheap - pH papers are even cheaper - so it really isn't a
problem to hit the right level.
More details on my website or in any good cider making book.
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford UK
www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: CD 1631 and 1633
From: Drew Zimmerman <drewzimmer@comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 15:24:05 -0700
I suppose I need to come out of hibernation and try to put up a little
defense for Northwest ciders.
I've been making Red Barn ciders in Skagit valley since 1994 and as far
as I know this is the only commercial cider produced there. My ciders
sell for $12.50 to $14 a bottle (750ml). They have all received gold
medals from GLINT at one time or another over the years. I think that
the Great Lakes Cider and Perry Asso. is doing a fantastic job of
educating people and training judges to evaluate ciders properly. I've
come to not putting much faith in evaluations of cider from wine and
beer judges, they largely don't understand the difference between good
cider characteristics and flaws or faults.
My ciders are made from apples from my orchard which are mostly
bittersweets, bittersharps and russets. I buy some dessert apples from
local growers. I process and ferment the juice in small batches (1000
gallons or less). I don't chapatilize. I do sweeten most of the ciders
with fructose before bottling, the amount depends on the acid level of
each particular product (apple sugar, by the way, is up to 80%
fructose). I do sweeten one cider with apple juice concentrate which I
make. I take fresh pressed juice and freeze it in 55 gallon drums. I
then thaw the drums slowly and reserve the first 50%. The rest is
discarded as mostly frozen water. The reserve is then slightly
sweetened with fructose then refrozen to be used during blending the
final product.
The response from our tasting room, tasting events and retail
establishments has been and continues to be extremely positive. One
interesting note: in 2005 and 2006 the most popular ciders were made
from dessert fruit. The flavor profile is sweet/tart with the aroma and
character of fresh apple. More recently in 2010 and 2011 popularity has
shifted more to traditional ciders made from cider apples. The flavor
profile of these ciders is less sweet with some bitterness and
astringency, spicy aromas, complex flavors of fruit, smoke, resin,
vanilla and perhaps some slight hay barn.
Northwest cideries are on the rise. When I started in 2004 there were
only two in Washington state, one a macro sixpack cider producer, the
other a true traditional orchard cidery. To me, this was quite
embarrassing for the largest apple producing state in the country. Now
in 2011 we have 10 or more cideries, most of these are artisan in nature
growing their own apples. A rough estimate for acreage of cider only
apples now is 60 to 80 acres, a far cry from the 5 acres or so (mostly
backyard growers) and the few rows at the WSU research station in 2003.
Perry pears are attracting some interest now too with probably over 20
acres planted or topworked. For those interested in what is going on
regarding cider in the Northwest, visit www.nwcider.com
Regarding mousey, barnyard, Brettanomyces, etc.
Brett or Dekkera is a spoilage yeast that produces a distinctive funk in
wine and cider described as farm yard, barnyard, horse blanket, straw
and manure, etc. This flavor can also be created by lactic acid
bacteria in cider. In traditional bittersweet ciders it is an
acceptable and even desirable characteristic in small amounts. Like
many characteristics in wine and cider if they are in balance and
enhance the sensory experience of the beverage, they are considered
attributes. If they dominate the palate, then they are faults. I have
reason to believe that barnyard can also come from the tannins and other
chemical compounds found in bittersweet apples. I have had on various
occasions had ciders which were filtered and pasteurized develop some
barnyard character after a few months of storage. These ciders never
developed a haze or any sediment to indicate microorganism activity and
had no trace of the characteristic in the first couple of months after
bottling.
Mouse or mousiness is a falt in wine and cider that is detected
olfactorily after swallowing. It creeps up the back of the palate and
can give the overpoweringand persistant sensation of an uncleaned rodent
cage. Its cause is attributed to Brettanomyces and lactic acid
bacteria. In very low amounts it is reminiscent of popcorn or crackers.
Mousiness in never considered an attribute in cider. One interesting
note: mousiness can sometimes disappear over time. I have kept
excellent examples of mousey cider for future cider making classes only
to find the effect completely gone after 6 months storage.
If you are interested in keeping the mouse out of your cider, keep free
SO2 levels above 20 mg/L (ppm) during bulk storage and at bottling.
Drew Zimmerman
Red Barn Cider
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider quality...
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 16:48:27 -0600
I have two replies to Steven Edholm's article ("Cider quality and
bretanomyces?") in the last digest. This first one is about his
evaluations of ciders; the second one is about his own procedures
and questions.
Steven wrote:
> ...I had a friend in Vermont bring back some bottles of cider...
> ...The bottle of sparkling Farnum hill was bad enough that I
> didn't finish it and the Flag hill still and sparkling were both bad...
> ...Then my mom goes to England, Somerset no less. Do you want anything?
> How about some cider mom? 3 bottles came back. Two were so disgusting
> that I was spitting in the sink and rinsing my mouth out...
> ...Then we picked up a local bottle from Sonoma County which was also
> undrinkable and sorry I can't remember the names of some of these...
> ...Now all of these ciders had one defect in common, but in varying
> degrees...
It seems to me that by this time Steven should have become suspicious
of his own evaluations instead of believing that there's bad cider
everywhere. It is usually wrong to think, "Everyone's out of step but
me."
I can assure Steven that Farnum Hill's ciders are not undrinkable at
all! In fact they are highly regarded and have a loyal following. It's
been a few years since I've had Flag Hill but they were doing a good job
too. And Somerset ciders of a sort that would be packaged suitably for
travel should almost all be good.
With the Farnum Hill as lead, the Somerset ciders to corroborate, and
Steven's attempt to describe the nature of the "fault", any experienced
cider-drinker will realize what it is: the characteristic set of flavors
which come from traditional tannic cider apples. These are unaccustomed
tastes to a new cider drinker, and they can seem very odd and out of
place. There are notes of spice, smoke sometimes as "smoky bacon", and
yes, even a -touch- of "farmyard" (tho more than a touch is a fault).
They are not the result of a fault but rather introduced by malo-lactic
fermentation in a tannic cider, and are very much sought-after.
It's back again to the difference between "This is bad" and "I don't like
this"! Nobody is expected to like this style of cider any more than
they're expected to like blue cheeses, lambic ales, or any of a host of
other distinctively flavored foods and drinks. Yet they should understand
that their personal tastes are just that--personal.
So I bristle a bit when Steven writes:
>...Forgive my unsolicited opinion, but It would seem that if a person
> is going to start a cidery that they should first learn to make good
> cider...
My "unsolicited" response is that people who are going to start evaluating
ciders should first learn the styles. There's a lot more to cider than
the fizzy-sweet-fruity type.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: ...brettanomyces?
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 18:09:18 -0600
Regarding the second part of Steven Edholm's note in the last digest,
concerning his procedures and attempts to avoid the off-flavors...first,
we've got to get it in context (see my previous note) that what he is
considering a fault (if that's what's happening to him) is actually
deliberate style.
>...First, what causes it? Am I right on
> the brettanomyces? The flavor could be described as mousy or barnyard
> I guess, but like I said, I don't have anyone to point it out in person.
Barnyard and mousy are quite different when we use them to describe a
particular character in a cider, so this really means you need to sit
down with someone experienced and some samples, both commercial and your
own.
It's possible to get a Brett infection in cider, but unusual. A -slight-
barnyard character, especially if accompanied by notes of spice and/or
smokiness, is characteristic of a malo-lactic fermentation (MLF). Now,
these ARE sought-after for a certain style, but if you don't like them,
the solution is to prevent MLF. MLF normally starts after the main
fermentation. It is less likely to occur at lower pH, so you can gain
a little control there with more acidic fruit. Sulfiting will prevent
it, so if you sulfite at the racking where fermentation has mostly stopped,
you should avoid it.
Mouse is a different matter, different source, different chemistry...and
it is a fault at any detectable level.
>... It is not sulfury though. I've encountered that enough too and its
> different.
For the sake of evaluating cider, you need to distinguish a "sulfite"
smell (sharp/acrid, like a match) from "sulfide" (rotten egg), as they
have different causes. But that's wide of this discussion since you
say you don't have such a problem.
On wild yeast (earlier in the article) Steven wrote:
>...One year while pressing apple juice from some gravenstien I decided
> to put an air lock on a 5 gallon carboy and see what might happen.
> I got lucky and it was very drinkable (BTW, I saved this wild yeast
> strain and it is in it's third generation).
There are occasional discussions of "wild yeast fermentations" here on
the Digest and elsewhere, but these refer to fermentations involving a
progression of different strains of yeast which mostly don't survive
because they have poor alcohol tolerance. What you've got with your
saved yeast is just some strain of Saccharomyces cerevisae (like wine
yeasts). Unless you're careful in your propagation techniques, and in
sanitation, it may have mutated, and could be carrying bacteria along
with it.
>... I am assuming that since apples are only washed and not pasteurized
> that some losses are going to be unavoidable...
Losses from this reason should not occur. Yes, there's all manner of
potential spoilage organisms, but the combination of the acidity of
the fruit, eventually the alcohol, and in-between a dose of sulfite,
will prevent them from taking hold. Use sound, clean fruit; that's
the main thing.
On the use of sulfite:
>...I have taken to washing my apples in a sulfite sterilizing
> solution before pressing...
..and later:
> ...Carboys are sterilized with sulfite solution followed by a rinse of
> boiled water...
You're misunderstanding the action of a sulfite solution. By itself it
won't do much, because it takes acid to release the SO2 and make it
active. So sulfite on the surface of the fruit will only help to the
extent it carries over into the pressing (not much I expect).
There are a few methods of sanitizing (let's be correct--we're not
actually sterilizing) equipment.
One is the use of plain household bleach in water. It only takes a little
bit--iirc, a tsp of normal bleach in a gallon. You can rinse with this,
drain, and let the equipment dry. Be sure the bleach doesn't have scents
or thickening agents.
There are various commercial preparations. I use one called Star-San (no
connection; no endorsement implied) which is a combination of phosphoric
acid and a surfactant. An advantage of some of these preps is that they
are no-rinse.
Keep in mind, though, that obsessive sanitizing of fermentation equipment
is pointless since you're going to be introducing juice just squeezed
from fruit that's been outdoors for months and will -not- be sanitized.
>...I'm a little less sure how to sterilize siphon tubing, but I'm
> trying to store them full of sulfite which I would think would be
> effective...
Again, a sulfite solution by itself isn't active. It takes acidity to
release the SO2. Also, here, I'd wonder whether the solution might
interact with the tubing over the long term. (Hey Andrew! Any thoughts
on that?)
But back up a moment: Why are you wanting to -store- them in any sort
of sanitizer? Sanitize just before you use them. Remember the rule,
"Clean after use, sanitize before use": Don't put equipment away dirty,
or you'll have trouble getting it clean later. But sanitize (as needed)
just before use. You don't gain anything by storing in contact with a
sanitizer, and you do raise issues about what long-term contact with
the sanitizer might do to the equipment.
>...I don't yet have a means for measuring ph, so I'm somewhat guessing on
> the sulfite levels pre-fermentation...
Well, there's where you can make a big improvement in your procedures!
If you have a high pH juice, such that you're under-sulfiting, you'll
be carrying in bacteria and mold spores from the fruit such that all
the sanitizing of equipment is for naught.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1634
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