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Cider Digest #1614
Subject: Cider Digest #1614, 13 February 2011
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1614 13 February 2011
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Storage Containers (Sean Thompson)
Cider drinkers ("Dwight Brown")
Fast vs slow fermentation (Andrew Lea)
Floater (mouse) question (Andrew Lea)
Weak Yeast (naturally sweet cider) (Andrew Lea)
Re: Weak yeast (Dick Dunn)
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
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Subject: Storage Containers
From: Sean Thompson <seanthompsonahl@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 07:43:20 -0600
I have a couple 20 Liter test batches of cider brewing. I am going to have
to store it and let it age. Can anyone suggest an appropriate storage
container for the cider. Currently, it is in home brew buckets but, when I
cut it for the final product I will be out of room in the buckets.
Thanks,
Sean
- --
Sean Thompson
210-379-7512
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Subject: Cider drinkers
From: "Dwight Brown" <dwightbrown@vip.net>
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 06:30:04 -0800
Hello,
Does anyone have information on the demographics of people who drink =
cidre as compared to other refreshment beverages?
Thanks,
Dwight Brown
------------------------------
Subject: Fast vs slow fermentation
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@harphill.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 11:53:03 +0000
On 06/02/2011 21:38, Dennis wrote:
>
> A nurmber of articles and books about cider have recommended that cider
> that is fermented and aged at low temperatures will have a better flavor
> than if those processes take place at higher temperatures. I realize
> the biochemistry of taste is very complex, but does anyone know what the
> differences are?
Fundamentally it's the same recommendation as for white wine making. Low
fermentation temperatures (say 15C) tend to lead to greater ester
synthesis and retention, and typically a diminished amount of higher
(fusel) alcohols. If you are using wild yeast fermentations, then
another factor is that at lower temperatures ca 10C the
non-Saccharomyces yeasts tend to perform better than their cultured
cousins and this might be seen as beneficial to those of us who value a
little 'apiculate' flavour. Not all cidermakers think like this. Some
large UK cidermakers like to ferment at 25C because it's quicker and
they get a flavour profile which they say suits their products better
that way.
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford UK
www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Floater (mouse) question
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@harphill.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 12:00:30 +0000
On 02/02/2011 22:31, Seth wrote:
>
> Bit of an off topic question: I was racking off my carboys last night
> and in the bottom of one was the bloated body of a dead mouse. ....
> .....Of the five carboys I put up from the same
> pressing of mixed dessert apples four remained thick and cloudy. Only
> the one with the mouse in it dropped totally clear with a large build
> up of lees at the bottom. What caused this? Half joking but it does
> intrique me... Anyone?
> I've read about the old timers throwing meat in their ciders but don't
> think it's related.
As others have said, the traditional effect of throwing meat in is to
speed up fermentation by supplying amino acids and nutrients. But your
question is a little different. It is difficult to be sure but it could
be that the extra protein from the mouse acted a bit like a gelatin
fining and hence brought down the haze by combining with juice
'tannins'. Or it could be that some enzymes from the mouse's stomach or
gut had some pectinolytic or proteolytic activity which might also clear
a haze. (I know I am arguing two contradictory mechanisms here but in
the absence of evidence these are just "possibilities".)
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford UK
www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Weak Yeast (naturally sweet cider)
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@harphill.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 12:05:36 +0000
On 06/02/2011 21:38, Terry Bradshaw wrote:
>
> Catching up on an answer to an old question here. This really isn't as
> hard as it's made out to be, given a few caveats. Start with low N
> juice, as Claude mentioned, but it doesn't have to be strictly from a
> non-managed 'wild' tree. Lightly fertilized commercial apples will do,
> especially if on gravelly or sandy soil. Press when dead ripe, this is
> for quality's sake. You can try a keeve but I don't recommend it any
> more,it's fairly unpredictable and a real PITA. Rather, lightly (say, 50
> ppm) sulfite the juice off the press, then pitch 1/3 to 1/2 the
> recommended dose of Epernay or Cotes des Blancs yeast, then get it into
> a cool (<50 F) spot. My naturally cold room in the cellar starts the
> fermenting season off in October at 55 F and goes down to 40 by
> December, and hits 32 during cold snaps. You can replicate this in an
> old refrigerator if you want. Don't rack, let it bubble slowly until
> you've reached the desired alcohol/sweetness, then drop the temp to as
> close to 32 that you can if you need to to clear the juice a bit.
> Transfer to a keg and dose with 25-5- ppm sulfite. Now set up a plate
> filter between one keg and another, run through a 0.5 micron pad, and
> voila- sweet, sparkling cider. It might not keep forever, but it will be
> pretty stable.
I am very interested in that, Terry. Can you make it work reliably year
on year? And how long does the cider store in that state? And what SG do
you typically bottle it at? I like your idea of controlling a cultured
yeast by low dose and low temperature - most of us have felt that a weak
wild mixed yeast (with all its unpredictability) was the only way. Have
you ever measured the YAN levels of the apples?
Andrew
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Weak yeast
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:57:50 -0700
Re Terry's method for sweet, sparkling cider--basically ferment slowly and
cool to desired level, then chill, rack to keg, sulfite, filter...
Seems the key is the cold, since this cider isn't likely to be shelf-stable
at room temp if you bottled off the keg. Not a bad idea though. Various
questions and puzzlements...
>...You can try a keeve but I don't recommend it any
> more,it's fairly unpredictable and a real PITA...
I've avoided keeving for those reasons, but do other folks who do keeving
feel like it's become more predictable with the enzyme (and possibly Ca)
treatments? Or is it still a crapshoot for the home/small cidermaker?
>...Rather, lightly (say, 50
> ppm) sulfite the juice off the press, then pitch 1/3 to 1/2 the
> recommended dose of Epernay or Cotes des Blancs yeast, then get it into
> a cool (<50 F) spot...
Why the reduced dose? I realized I do this myself but I'm not sure I can
justify it! Unless you're also hoping for some wild-yeast activity,
doesn't it just delay the fermentation? That is, won't the yeast
population eventually build up to where it would have been with a "full
dose"? I'm not criticizing the technique; I just don't understand (even
though I've acted as if I did:)
> Transfer to a keg and dose with 25-5- ppm sulfite. Now set up a plate
> filter between one keg and another, run through a 0.5 micron pad, and
> voila- sweet, sparkling cider...
(Was the "25-5-" a typo for 25-50?)
Are you really able to go straight to 0.5 micron dependably? Or do you
(sometimes) need coarser pads first?
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1614
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