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Cider Digest #1636
Subject: Cider Digest #1636, 10 June 2011
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1636 10 June 2011
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Re: More on mouse + oak barrels (Ben Watson)
Re: cider quality, mice, barnyards and other funks etc.... (Steven Edholm)
RE: Cider Digest #1635, 6 June 2011 ()
Building Wooden Press Racks (Dan Young)
handy wrench for Corny kegs (Dick Dunn)
know who your customers are not (Dick Dunn)
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
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Subject: Re: More on mouse + oak barrels
From: Ben Watson <BWatson@chelseagreen.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 12:10:19 -0400
Regarding sensitivity to "mousiness" in cider/wine -- I don't know how much
it is due to genetics (or maybe ethnicity), or whether it has as much or
more to do with culture, experience, relative mouth pH, or something else.
The subject interests me, though, being someone who is fairly sensitive to
it -- including doing a recent spit-take on a bad bottle of (too) old Nero
d'Avola red wine from Italy.
Jancis Robinson (and others) assert that Americans in general are more
sensitive to "brett" than others. Perhaps Andrew Lea can explain -- probably
for the umpteenth time -- what's behind the difference in ability to
perceive mousiness.
As to fermenting in oak barrels, I covered the topic in the final chapter
(Scaling Up) of my revised edition of "Cider, Hard and Sweet" (and others
have too, of course). I would use either well-used white wine barrels if you
can get them, or if you buy barrels new, or fairly new, pretreat them to
leach out some of the harder tannins from the oak before filling with cider.
I find over-oaked cider undrinkable, far more so than over-oaked Chardonnay,
which is fortunately less prevalent today than it was 15-20 years ago.
Also, something that seems obvious -- the smaller the volume of the barrel,
the more pronounced tannins you will get from newer wood, since more of the
cider will be in contact with the barrel.
Given the expense of barrels (new or used), it might be worth seeking out
the alternatives -- oak strips/baffles that can be inserted in the cider
while aging is taking place, these can be purchased in a wide range of chars
and have a lot of surface area to impart a quick oaky quality to the cider.
And they can be removed when the desired degree of oakiness has been
achieved. They're available from a number of online winemaking supply
houses, as are oak barrels themselves.
Just one man's opinion -- I don't have room for lots of barrels at home, but
I sometimes add oak chips/baffles to a batch of aging cider, just for fun,
Honestly, though, I don't think it adds much of what I want in my cider. If
I were using all low-tannin dessert fruit, I would be probably be more
interested in introducing more complexity and structure to the cider.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Re: cider quality, mice, barnyards and other funks etc....
From: Steven Edholm <stevene@pacific.net>
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 12:25:33 -0700
Thanks to Dan, Drew and Andrew for your replies regarding cider quality
and spoilage/flavor compounds. And thanks especially to Dan for
replying in detail to my quest for "better" cider even though he was
clearly a little pissed. Yes, I suppose it is possible, maybe probable,
that I just don't like some flavor characteristics in cider that are
considered desirable by others. I have a very sensitive pallet and can
sometimes smell and taste spoilage, especially in proteins, where other
people can't. Too, I may just experience these flavors differently than
other people. It is said that people who hate Cilantro experience the
flavor very differently than people who like it (which I do). That
being said, I do have a broad enough experience with flavor to know what
I like and don't like. I can't think of a ripened cheese I don't like
and I'm even partial to fish sauce in the right degree and it smells
awful on its own. In fact, I'm unable to think of a strongly flavored
food I don't like. I don't like any of that funk in my cider though and
I can't imagine learning to like it, so again maybe I experience it more
or differently or both. I have to say though that no one else here was
impressed with any of these ciders either and my wife can detect the
same flavors and considers them undesirable as well. Then again, like
is like and vice versa, so taste being subjective I suppose there is
"good" from a group or majority perspective and "good" from the personal
perspective and perhaps I am too hasty in judging. This is probably
partially due to the fact that I generally have a bug up my butt about
lack of quality and pride in all kinds of commercial ventures here in
America. It is remarkable how long people can get away with selling
substandard products or services since there are a lot of people out
there to tap as new customers even if they don't return. I'm also
rather shocked at what people will consider acceptable quality.
Therefore it would not surprise me if an industry sprouted up that
produces a poor product (yes, I know its subjective) yet still manages
to limp along anyway. I have a hard time believing that any of you
would actually like the ciders I'm referring to if you taste them the
way I do, and even less so for new cider drinkers, so I think that it
may be more likely that the way I experience them is different.
Regardless, my apologies to any cidery or ciders that I disparaged
without qualification out of ignorance of what other people consider
good cider. Other people's flavor perceptions don't however entirely
invalidate my perspective (and others here who tried them) that they
were bad and I hope that can be somewhat instructive.
So far I tend to like dry ciders that are clean and bright tasting. I
am hoping to someday taste a still cider that I like, but so far I've
preferred any that I have made carbonated, about which I am
unapologetic. I have planted a lot of bittersweet apples here
experimentally, but they will surely be mixed with dessert type apples
and for this reason I've planted no Bittersharps. My goal in cider
making will be more or less the pursuit of dry ciders with none of the
funk I'm referring to (whatever the cause) and distinctive fruit
flavors. Although I tend to think that I would like a fermentation that
leaves fruit flavors intact when the apple permits it, I recognize that
flavors are developed during fermentation as well depending on the yeast
used and whatever other conditions.
Re: MLF, I do not tend to rack off much, so perhaps sitting on lees is
part of my problem with funky ciders. I'll try racking off more as long
as I don't lose so much nutrient that I can't ferment to dryness=85 or
then maybe I can add nutrient.
I was rather surprised to hear Dan say that sulfites are not very
effective sanitizers on their own since they are widely used as a
sanitizing wash for equipment and for bottles before filling, but I'll
take that under advisement and think about trying some more aggressive
sanitizers. I have used chlorine on occassion. I've not sulfited any
finished cider in the bottle, but can only recall one bottle going bad
after bottling. Mostly my problems have been apparent at bottling or
racking.
As to fruit PH, most of the fruit I've ended up with so far is more
acidic than not. I will pick up a PH meter though for this next season
and follow the guidelines in Andrew's book.
Thanks for your suggestions regarding gaining control over this process.
I hope that the reason that flavors with names like old horse, funk,
barnyard etc=85 are accepted is not primarily because they are often
unavoidable. If I can't gain control of my cider in a way that is
consistent with my cider making goals I'll just have to find something
else to do with all those apples or graft over the cider apples to
dessert apples=85. maybe plant some grapes. Either that or find
something to do with what I consider substandard batches of cider. I
hope I can figure it out though because I do love me a "good" glass of
cider.
Cheers
Steven
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1635, 6 June 2011
From: <dan@iabc-ins.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 18:18:32 -0700
Hello,
Is there a cider group or club or any organization in the San Jose,
California area I could join to learn hands-on on how to make cider? Maybe
an email blast out to folks who want to form a group if none exists. Please
advise.
Respectfully,
DanThomas
dan@iabc-ins.com
650-292-5744
------------------------------
Subject: Building Wooden Press Racks
From: Dan Young <tandemciders@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 08:36:59 -0400
I'm thinking about building some wooden racks for a 32" press. Are there
any resources regarding species and quality of wood and any other material
and methods? I am planning to use quarter sawn ash and 7/8" stainless steel
nails and dip the rack in bee's wax when done. Should I build something
a bit more stout for the top and bottom racks? Thanks for your help.
Dan YoungTandem CidersSuttons Bay, MI
------------------------------
Subject: handy wrench for Corny kegs
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 11:58:52 -0600
(stumbled on this years ago, was just reminded of it)
For "Corny" kegs (Cornelius 5-gallon SS ex-soda kegs), Sears Craftsman
makes a handy wrench: 12-point box-end ratchet, 11/16" on one end and
7/8" on the other (item #43365). This will fit both sizes of ball-lock
posts used on Corny kegs, plus the 7/8" size gas-in post is 12-point so
this works where a typical 6-point wrench doesn't.
I've often wondered about this particular wrench, since it is unusual in
having the two ends differing by 3/16" rather than 1/16". (Could it have
been made for this purpose?? Nah.) But..."whatever"; it just happens to
work for the purpose, and since it just takes the one wrench you can't
grab the wrong one.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: know who your customers are not
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 18:48:46 -0600
Following on somewhat from Rich Anderson's note about cider in the
Northwest, I want to bring up a point somebody taught me about business
many decades ago--and it really helped my attitude toward irritating
would-be customers:
Know who your customers are NOT!
There are people who are only too glad to tell you what product/service
you should be providing. Usually that's because it's something they
would like to buy. But if it's not "what you do" you need to be able to
tell them so...not unkindly, but firmly. They may persist, telling you
that you're ignoring a market, that you could sell a lot more, make more
money, etc. They can even become abrasive about it, because they know
it's something -they- can't do, but -you- could if you'd only do it. You
need to tell them (in effect) "Don't go away mad...just go away."
I first truly understood this from a customer of a company where I worked;
we were foundering in part because we had high-maintenance customers whom
we were trying to keep happy, and it was sapping our product development.
They were high maintenance because they wanted us to do stuff that wasn't
really part of our business! Since then and with that insight, I've
watched many companies sink because they tried to be all things to all
people. Companies rarely fail because they're too narrowly focused.
So if you want to make a completely dry cider, and you know how to do it,
and you make a good one that you can sell, you don't have to give in to
the folks who want a sweeter cider. You can make a still cider and not
have to give in to requests for a lot of carbonation. The folks who want
sweet apple soda can find an ocean of it. And even if you want to go for
the challenging character of a West Country bittersweet, once you hit
your stride you should be able to sell all you can make. Stick to it--
keep your product line simple and keep to what you know how to do well.
If somebody thinks your ciders should be priced like beer, but you can
promote and sell them at wine prices--well, get on with it! You don't
need the business of somebody who literally wants you to lose money.
Apple of a different sort: The most successful and most respected computer
company in the world is one which frequently ignores fairly large and
potentially lucrative markets. This confounds analysts and infuriates
(a few) potential customers, but it works.
</sermon>
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1636
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