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Cider Digest #1633
Subject: Cider Digest #1633, 23 May 2011
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1633 23 May 2011
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
ice cider (Jack O Feil)
Cider price (Claude Jolicoeur)
Re: re #1630/Cider Marketing ("Charles McGonegal")
Re: Cider Digest #1631, 14 May 2011 (denniswaller@comcast.net) (Alex Kroh)
Cider quality and bretanomyces? (Steven Edholm)
Skagit ciders (Dick Dunn)
NOTE: Digest appears whenever there is enough material to send one.
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
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Subject: ice cider
From: Jack O Feil <feilorchards@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 16:37:09 -0700
I had a chance to taste some ice cider that had fermented down to 17 Brix
from about 35 Brix. It was quite sweet but very good to my taste,
somewhat more fruity and had a lot of alcohol zip. But there was still a
lot of sugar that did not ferment, the fermentation stopped on its own.
My question is what kind of yeast will cause the ice cider to ferment
further? Thanks, Jack
------------------------------
Subject: Cider price
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 20:41:05 -0400
In Cider Digest #1632, 18 May 2011
>Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1631, 14 May 2011
>From: denniswaller@comcast.net
>1) What do you mean by "expensive"? ANSWER: $ 6.95 per liter + tax.
There is something I don't get here. You think 6.95$ is expensive...
Here in Quebec, there are many people that actually buy real Champagne and
pay 60$ and more for one bottle. (some also pay over 100$ for a bottle of
great wine).
And there is also people (and some are also in the previous group) that say
they prefer to drink my cider rather than a 60$ bottle of true Champagne.
And I have actually witnessed it - both bottles on the table, the cider
went empty first.
Now, would these same people pay 50$ for a bottle of really great cider?
Even if they thought it was actuelly better that a Champagne?
Unfortunately, I don't think so... Why?
Personnally, I think the cider market needs some "Grand cru" that could
drive the prices up a little. Because, at 6.95$ a litre, there is no way
you can earn your living making true cider, unless you accept to work for
an hourly salary of 0.50$... For my part, I'd rather give my cider away
than sell it at that price.
Claude
------------------------------
Subject: Re: re #1630/Cider Marketing
From: "Charles McGonegal" <cpm@appletrue.com>
Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 20:44:21 -0500
Oooh. Dick rubbed my lamp, so now I feel compelled to toss my hat into the
discussion.
Mike B's reply was a little rambly, but highly detailed. And if anything,
understates every difficulty. Autumn stated my original thesis when I
started Aeppeltreow. (And I'm yes, Autumn, I'm oversimplifying - apologies
in advance.) Make great stuff from great fruit and tell an honest story
about it. And it works - but my current opinion is that the size of the
market it finds is highly local and variable. Here in WI, moving 60 miles
makes a great deal of difference. And it's not toward the population center
that's best for this story.
If you can draw enough people to your tasting room, and hold down tasting
room costs, that approach may be enough. But one tasting room can scale
only so far. To keep growing, you need an off-site market, and that's a
different apple. It might even be an orange, to mix metaphors. Moving
off-site, it's _very_ hard to convey your story. So your packaging and
price sell the first bottle.
Mike gave a detailed summary of packaging options. I can't add anything to
it. But I'd like to say a couple of things around it.
First, back up to the source of apples. When I got started, 'common wisdom'
held that a winery (grapes) had a capital intensity of about $1 annual
revenue / $1 capital. That's oil refinery territory, folks. And I think
that number holds up for cideries. Land, perennial crop, trellis
infrastructure, harvest equipment, winery plant, glass, 1 turn a year using
estate fruit. The only out a cidery has is not using barrels - unless you
do. An oil refinery has a tiny gross margin. A few percent. There's no
way a boutique, estate cidery is going to last long at that margin. So it
will have a low return on capital, and a high gross margin. Don't ask me
how high, that one of the things that, like Mike, I haven't figured out
after 10 years.
This is why my mantra is 'cider is not beer.' It's what I call the
'cidermaker's dilemma' - cider costs like wine, but is served next to beer.
And that positioning sets an impossible price expectation. (Like $7/L
mentioned recently) So break the expectation, wherever and however you can.
The other side of that particular coin is my observation that beer geeks, as
a general trend, are more willing to try cider than wine geeks. I've
stopped attending wine fests. My only hope for a good experience was to
have the 1/1000 person who comes up and says 'I haven't had real cider since
I travelled in Normandy/Brittany, I'm so glad you're here'. Usually as one
long word.
Second, Mike didn't expound on draft. But I hope he will. I find it a
tempting, but difficult market. At the lowest margin in my portfolio, it
moves gallons. And is a lot less labor. But it has its own hair tearing
features. In my neck of the woods, the beer distributors 'helped' most bars
put in tap lines, and the owners feel obligated to the distributor to choose
what goes on them. That's why 'commercial bribery' and 'tied house' are
illegal. But widely practiced. My orchard grower / partner pushes me each
year to make more kegs. I think he sees the bar on every corner, and
drools. But I'm in Bud Lite territory. My cider, priced like a Belgian,
sells at specialty shops. On premise, or off - they're still specialty
shops. And there aren't that many of them.
Lastly, another thought about distributors. Even within a distributor, I
think you'll find that salespeople vary greatly. Some are just out to take
orders for the catalog items that sell themselves. A couple will like your
story, and take it up for themselves, as long as the product is adequate
quality. They sell it because they buy into your story, and helping the
story along is personally rewarding for them. Oh, how I treasure those
people. If I could graft and grow them, I would.
And if you think that selling cider off-premise takes a lot of foot work and
pouring - try specialty spirits.
Charles McGonegal
AeppelTreow Winery & Distillery
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1631, 14 May 2011 (denniswaller@comcast.net)
From: Alex Kroh <alexander.kroh@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 04:05:25 -0400
I have been watching this brief thread with interest because I happen
to think that the northwest in general is producing some quality
cider. I can't speak specifically to the Skagit Valley producers,
however. Anyway, one thing caught my eye that I've been wondering
about:
> Unfortunately some of the ciders I tasted were also made
> with sweetening agents and apple concentrate.
I understand that the use of apple concentrate for the fermentable
would be an obvious indication that the cider wasn't produced with
fresh-pressed apples, as is the case with some or many of the current
large scale cider "manufacturers". But don't even some craft
cidermakers use concentrate to add some sweetness to their beverage
post-fermentation? If that is the case and it isn't a faux-pas for the
Real Cider methodist, could someone explain the process? Is it more
(space) economical to produce a pasteurized cider concentrate to keep
around while the cider ferments, and how is a concentrate produced
without imparting a cooked flavor?
Thanks,
Alex Kroh
------------------------------
Subject: Cider quality and bretanomyces?
From: Steven Edholm <stevene@pacific.net>
Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 09:05:50 -0700
Re: the recent discussions that have touched on Cider quality I would like to
add my two cents. One year while pressing apple juice from some gravenstien
I decided to put an air lock on a 5 gallon carboy and see what might happen.
I got lucky and it was very drinkable (BTW, I saved this wild yeast strain
and it is in it's third generation). I said to myself that if I could
make cider that good I was going to make cider and plant cider apples.
I also assumed I could do much better... which I still do. I do not live
in cider country. Aside from tasting the occasional home made cider I
don't get to taste much of it. In other words, I'm not entirely sure what
I'm aiming for. So, in the spirit of research I had a friend in Vermont
bring back some bottles of cider. One bottle of west county ashmeads was
very good and inspiring. the west county redfield was pretty good, though
not my type. The bottle of sparkling Farnum hill was bad enough that I
didn't finish it and the Flag hill still and sparkling were both bad.
Then my mom goes to England, Somerset no less. Do you want anything?
How about some cider mom? 3 bottles came back. Two were so disgusting
that I was spitting in the sink and rinsing my mouth out. The third (I
think magners?) had the same barnyard taste as all the other bad ciders,
just less. I didn't finish it either. Oh if only I had done the research
and told her exactly what to buy. Then we picked up a local bottle from
Sonoma County which was also undrinkable and sorry I can't remember the
names of some of these.
Now all of these ciders had one defect in common, but in varying degrees.
Since I have no one to point to this or that flavor and say, yep thats it,
I'm tentatively assuming that this is what is called mousy and caused by
Brettanomyces. Whatever the cause, I'm sure that this is a difficult to
overcome problem. I'm more sure of that for the reason that about half
of my ciders suffer from it too. Most people will still drink most of
them as they aren't so bad really, but I won't and I don't serve them
to anyone knowingly. Forgive my unsolicited opinion, but It would seem
that if a person is going to start a cidery that they should first learn
to make good cider. And further, it would be nice if the fact that they
have dug themselves into a hole where cider must be sold to get out that
they would still refrain from selling at least the un-drinkably bad cider
to the public. I may have had a run of bad luck, but how bad would it
have to be to get that many bottles of bad cider? What must the public
buying cider and trying it for the first time think of cider? Really,
I have to conclude that the state of cider is pretty sad. I had hoped
that was limited to the United States, but...
Back to my ciders, I would like to solicit the opinion of those on the
list who actually do make good cider how I might solve my problems with
the issue of these off flavors. First, what causes it? Am I right on
the brettanomyces? The flavor could be described as mousy or barnyard
I guess, but like I said, I don't have anyone to point it out in person.
Whatever it is its common. It is not sulfury though. I've encountered
that enough too and its different. Secondly, assuming it is due to an
unwanted organism, what would be the primary causes of infection and how
would I best go about preventing it. I have to admit that my conditions
are anything but sanitary. I've been trying to do my best, but there
is always more that can be done I suppose. I can only do so much about
this factor right now living under relatively primitive conditions,
but suggestions would be still appreciated. I am assuming that since
apples are only washed and not pasteurized that some losses are going to
be unavoidable. I have taken to washing my apples in a sulfite sterilizing
solution before pressing. Still, this past fall at least half of my cider
batches are what I would consider failures in regards to the character I'm
calling mousy, though I have to say I've made progress on the sulfur taints.
Carboys are sterilized with sulfite solution followed by a rinse of boiled
water and airlocks and and bungs are dropped into boiling water followed
by sulfite. I'm a little less sure how to sterilize siphon tubing, but I'm
trying to store them full of sulfite which I would think would be effective.
I don't yet have a means for measuring ph, so I'm somewhat guessing on
the sulfite levels pre-fermentation.
One last point I'm curious about is whether this problem is likely to
develop in the bottle or if it is more of a bulk fermentation stage issue.
Thanks for any advice.
------------------------------
Subject: Skagit ciders
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 10:31:40 -0600
Dennis Waller wrote:
> In response to my negative opinion of ciders made in the Skagit valley
> Dick Dunn wrote
>
> 1) What do you mean by "expensive"? ANSWER: $ 6.95 per liter + tax. .
$7/liter is $5.25 for 750 ml (one common bottle size, so a number we can
compare). That is very INexpensive.
You will find that commercial cidermakers--even those who absolutely
love what they are doing--do not like to lose money.
> 2) What do you mean by "an unattractive taste"? ANSWER: There were several
> faults and they were noted by my wife as well as some friends who tasted
> the cider. First, the ciders were all excessively sweetened. Second they
> had what I would call a ropy flavor and virtually no apple flavor...
Well, for starters "ropy" isn't a taste.
I'm particularly curious why you won't "name names". Instead of slagging
off the whole region, give us some specifics. I remain suspicious that
this is a conflation of "I don't like this" and "This is bad."
As to whether there's sufficient traditional English and French varieties
in the Skagit Valley for commercial cider--I'm quite sure that cidermakers
were planting such varieties when I was there in 2003...so barring the
highly unlikely possibility that they've all been grubbed out, I don't
get what your pomology source was on about.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1633
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