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Cider Digest #1631
Subject: Cider Digest #1631, 14 May 2011
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1631 14 May 2011
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
subjective comments on cider (Dick Dunn)
Re: Cider Digest #1629, 9 May 2011 (Autumn Stoscheck)
article (Bill Barton)
re #1630/Cider Marketing ("Mike Beck")
Hereford Cider Competition 2011 (Andrew Lea)
MLF, "wild" vs culture (Dick Dunn)
NOTE: Digest appears whenever there is enough material to send one.
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
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Subject: subjective comments on cider
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 13:53:24 -0600
In the last CD, Dennis Waller wrote:
> Several cideries have been established in the Skagit valley just south of
> Bellingham WA in the NW corner of the state. This is an apple growing
> region with a Washington State University research center on pomology
> so both raw materials and the technical advice are readily available.
> With few exceptions the ciders I tried were both very expensive and had an
> unattractive taste. They lack the clean, fresh and tangy taste of a good
> cider...
Dennis, you're not giving us much to get hold of here.
What do you mean by "expensive"? Give us a dollar figure.
At the least I would point out that cider made from apples is much more
expensive to produce than "cider" which is primarily from water, sugar
syrup, and malic acid, so if you're comparing the local products to
"six-pack" ciders, that's part of it. (But I'm guessing.)
What do you mean by "an unattractive taste"? Keep in mind the difference
between "this is bad" and "I don't like this": What faults could you
note in the ciders? Cider books generally have a run-down of faults
that you might point out--mousy, acetic(vinegary), harsh, ropy, etc.
Ciders made from some traditional English or French cider-specific apple
varieties won't be "tangy", and that's deliberate. Also, they won't be
what I would call "fresh", although I'm grasping at what you might mean.
Specifically, they won't taste like apples.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1629, 9 May 2011
From: Autumn Stoscheck <autumnstoscheck@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 13:25:28 -0700 (PDT)
In regards to marketing cider:
My advise is to make an excellent cider using high quality cider apples
and impeccable wine making techniques and you'll be able to sell as much
cider as you can.
We have the privilege to sell a lot of our cider in New York City, where
there are a lot of very different people all in one place. Since we do a
lot of direct sales, we get to interact with our customers, see their faces,
and hear their feedback. From this experience I have developed the opinion
that "target markets" are silly exercises in a business plan. Our customers
range from Hispanic farm workers, to middle age women from the Islands, to
hipster Brooklynites, to male and female college students, to accountants
and bankers and rich white people from the Upper East side and on and on.
I think it's a good idea to give people credit, and not assume they are
rigid sheep-like consumers who buy by the numbers. A lot of people are
genuinely adventurous, and like to be surprised by finding an authentic,
delicious culinary delight. And since cider is neither wine nor beer,
and is delicious, it can be just what they were looking for.
Autumn Stoscheck
Eve's Cidery
Van Etten, NY
------------------------------
Subject: article
From: Bill Barton <info@cidery.com>
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 16:50:06 -0400
Below is my response to a recent article. -- Bill Barton, Bellwether
Hard Cider
Response to "Who Buys Cider in the U.S.?"
Bellwether has been selling hard cider for about ten years using a
variety of venues and approaches.Take anything I say with a grain
because I do NOT have data to back this up.Most of our sales are direct
(tasting room, farmer's markets, internet) so we "see" most of our
customers.There do not seem to be any significant patterns as a function
of age or gender.We are in a large wine region so I probably should
conclude that the winos are a better target, but we get a significant
number of beer geeks and we have been well received in beer venues such
as beer bars and beer festivals.So, here are a few general conclusions....
First, the cider market is still relatively small.As a result, I don't
feel that we can spend too much energy targeting specific
demographics.We need them all!Also, state laws vary significantly which
can impact marketing strategies, e.g. in NY cider can be sold anywhere
that any alcohol can be sold, but wine cannot be sold in grocery stores.
So if you want to sell in a NY grocery store, you will be in the beer
section.
Second, older drinkers are more set in their ways.Younger drinkers are
used to having more choices and will take a chance on something new.That
being said, older drinkers who have been exposed to cider (in Europe or
behind the barn with Uncle Fred's home brew) have been good customers
for us.
Third, a big challenge for us is to get customers to buy more than one
bottle.They know what wine and beer is (and when they will drink it, how
food pairings work, etc.).Even if they love that first taste of your
cider, it still is an unknown for many.So they cut their risk by only
buying one bottle.Rather than worry about demographics, we spend more
time trying to come up with strategies to push customers to buy a second
bottle.
Fourth, we started out in beer packaging (six packs) and switched to
750 ml bottles with graphics that could live in both the wine and beer
world.Our experience has been that if you put your cider in beer bottles
you are only going to get beer prices.Since it is hard to generate beer
volumes (yet) this was problematic for us.Note that the beer market
right now is more innovative than the wine market and lots of brewers
are using a 750 ml bottle for their premium brews.These bottles
typically sell for wine prices.The package seems to matter as to what
the consumer will pay.
------------------------------
Subject: re #1630/Cider Marketing
From: "Mike Beck" <mjbeck@ujcidermill.com>
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 21:46:39 -0400
Responses to Jason MacArthurs Question & Others comments
I think it should be made a little more clear about what type of cider your
developing and identifying the market. As I see it there are two types of
ciders out there in the Market. Ciders fermented with 100% fruit(pomme) and
cider that is not fermented from 100% fruit. Some that are not 100% fruit
may use natural & artificial flavors. The ones that are not 100% fruit are
made to be identical from year to year. While the 100% fruit cider should
show uniqueness from year to year. At our cidery if it is not made with
100% pomme fruit, it is not true or real cider. (that is as PC as I can
get). I think comparing the two as equals is ludicrous. I am excluding
here things like fruit blends. i.e apple & cherry/blueberry/raz/cran/bacon?,
whatever. I still think real fruit should be used. I am just not lumping
them into regular cider and or perry.
Would the classic German Beer makers make beer with anything less or more
than water, malt, hops and yeast and still call it beer? (Schlitz tried, it
took them from #2 to almost non-existent)
Would Helen Turley, or insert famous cult wine maker here, make their
Premium $60 chard and $100 cabs(or any wine) with syrup or sugar? Doubtful
Contact me offline if you do not get where I am coming from.
What I would like to know is more about is bottle format. If you want to
move any quantity it is apparent(After 7 yrs at it, Commercially) that 6
packs at $9.99 retail or less will fly off the shelf.
I cannot make the numbers work for 6 pack. The cost of 5 more caps, labels,
bottles, & carrier kills it. Bottling on small equipment will last twice as
long; & the extra tax we pay vs. a beer product does not help either. To
some it sounds easy so far. In your tasting room you could charge 9.99 for
a 6 pack hand over fist and probably make some money.(not get rich) Now if
you really want to sell a lot you will have to get a distributor, & if you
want it to be that same price at retail you will sell it to them 50% - 55%
less. Now that six pack sells for $4.50 or less. Unless you think that
people will buy a 6 pack for $15.
Medium Formats: 16 oz to 22oz. These bottles can be simple to ornate. With
every kind of closure you can imagine. An amber 22oz bottle may cost as
little as .35 if you buy more than 10,000. With a very simple cap and paper
label you can get the cost of package under a buck. The fun unique bottles
can range from 2 -6$ or more each. Does the simple 22 look like it should
be in the beer aisle?. They certainly will not put it in the wine aisle.
There are very few stores that have cider section. Most have cider in a
corner or nook in some awkward place in the store. There are exceptions
always, but take a look around. Does the expensive, ornate bottle let you
be sold in the most prominent sections and command a real premium? Do any
of them sell enough to create volume?
Wine Format Bottles 750ML: These bottles are affordable but not cheap,
little less than a buck for a deep punt and thick glass. Others are
cheaper, you can easily spend more too. You can spend as little as a
nickel for closure or up to .75 cents. The big wine companies can move an
enormous amount of good wine that retail in the 9$-11$ range. However,
cider for most wine drinkers never hits their radar, for whatever reason.
Most of the time your 750ml bottle will have a spot in that cider nook next
to the Six packs & 22's. If you have a good distributor or can hand sell
you may have the best spot on the shelf. I have been very careful who I
pick for a distributor. I have high expectations for them and for the most
part they will get me the best spot in the store. Unless there is a cider
even more local than me.(Michigan Only) Regardless, the convenient six pack
is what moves volumes in the store. Unless you have draft it is about the
only way to get your product in a restaurant. (12oz)
I struggle with this every day. I have the fruit and equipment to be a
40,000 case cidery(annually) but am a long, long, long way from getting to
that level. Bill Rhyne suggest it takes a lot of Hand selling or Sampling.
He is spot on. We sample and sell 75% of our cider through our tasting
room. Richard Anderson stated that there is people using 500ml bottles(what
is the price point?). Richard also mentioned that regional organizations
can help us do the some of the marketing. I think he is correct. In at the
very least they can help raise the awareness of cider and cideries. I think
it is well worth what they charge for membership for what they can help do.
Distributors: Some get it, some do not. Regardless, they will do little
selling for you. They provide mostly warehouse space and act as
deliverymen. It usually takes them extra incentive for them to sell you.
Which is way different than them carrying your products. There are
exceptions to this too. It is important to remember that almost every state
has a three tier system and most states have "franchise laws", which means
that separating yourself from one(distributor) is much akin to divorcing a
spouse. Usually expensive lawyers get involved and a lot of name calling
and frustration happens and it may take just as much time.
Back to Jason's original question: who is buying cider? I have not been
able to nail that to a tree. It is very different from what happens in a
tasting room and what his happening on the store shelf. I think a lot of it
can depend on How its marketed. Still working on it though. Sorry for the
long post!
Mike Beck
Uncle John's Fruit House Winery & Distillery
St. John's, Michigan
------------------------------
Subject: Hereford Cider Competition 2011
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@harphill.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 19:39:21 +0100
The following notice was issued by the Cider Museum in Hereford, UK.
Congratulations to Gary Awdey as the US prize-winner!
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford UK.
- ----------------------------
CIDER MUSEUM, HEREFORD
International Cider & Perry Competition 2011
The results of the International Cider & Perry Competition held at the
Cider Museum in Hereford on Wednesday 11th May 2011 are as follows. The
judges were: Mr. Andrew Lea, Mr. Julian Temperley, and Miss Rose Grant.
A total of 134 entries were received from 36 cidermakers from throughout
the United Kingdom, Denmark and the USA.
OVERALL CHAMPION - Mitchell F&D Ltd, Pershore, Worcestershire (In-Bottle
Fermented Cider or Perry)
Class 1 - Dry Cider
First - Raglan Cider Mill, Usk, Monmouthshire
Second - Mr. Stuart Cooper, Checkley, Hereford
Third - Oliver's Cider & Perry Ltd, Ocle Pychard, Herefordshire
Class 2 - Medium Cider
First - Once Upon A Tree Ltd, Putley, Ledbury, Herefordshire
Second - Gary Awdey, Valparaiso, Indiana, USA
Third - Mitchell F&D Ltd, Pershore, Worcestershire
Class 3 - Sweet Cider
First - Severn Cider Ltd., Newnham, Gloucestershire
Second - Wilcox Cider, Shipham, Somerset
Third - Henney's Cider Co., Bishops Frome, Herefordshire
Class 4 - Perry - Dry
First - Gwatkin Cider Co. Ltd., Abbey Dore, Herefordshire
Second - Ralph's Cider & Perry, New Radnor, Radnorshire
(no third prize awarded)
Class 5 - Perry - Medium/Sweet
First Gwatkin Cider Co. Ltd., Abbey Dore, Herefordshire
Second Butford Organics, Bodenham, Herefordshire
Third Ross-on-Wye Cider & Perry Co. Ltd., Peterstow, Herefordshire
Class 6 - Single Variety Cider
First Once Upon A Tree Ltd, Putley, Ledbury, Herefordshire
Second Gwynt-y-Ddraig Cider, Pontypridd, Mid Glamorgan
Third Thatchers Cider Ltd, Sandford, Somerset
Class 7 - In-Bottle Fermented Cider or Perry
First - Mitchell F&D Ltd, Pershore, Worcestershire
Second - Dr Mike Penney, Troggi Seidr, Earlswood, Monmouthshire
Third - Richard Johnson, Axbridge, Somerset
Class 8 - Best Presented Packaged Cider or Perry
First Ashridge Cider, Totnes, Devon
Second Pips Cider, Dorstone, Herefordshire
Third Mitchell F&D Ltd, Pershore, Worcestershire
------------------------------
Subject: MLF, "wild" vs culture
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 21:37:54 -0600
What information is available about malolactic fermentation and the
specifics of "wild" (or spontaneous or natural) MLF vs introducing a
culture?
I've tried ML cultures and I'm not impressed with the results. They seem
to reduce acidity OK, but they don't develop any of the interesting side
flavor components normally associated with naturally occurring MLF.
Is this another situation like what happens with wild yeast--a progression
of actors? (...or what?...:-)
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1631
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