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Cider Digest #1573
Subject: Cider Digest #1573, 16 July 2010
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1573 16 July 2010
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Re: N, Fermentation Speed and Fruit Age (Claude Jolicoeur)
Redfield once more (Dick Dunn)
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
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Subject: Re: N, Fermentation Speed and Fruit Age
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2010 23:48:05 -0400
In Cider Digest #1429, 31 December 2007, I wrote:
>Subject: Fermentation speed
>From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
>Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 00:17:14 -0500
>I have a question for those who have more knowledge on fermentation
>chemistry.
>I have noticed a strong correlation between the date of pressing and the
>fermentation speed.
>Taking the same variety, and even from the same tree, if I make a pressing
>soon after harvest, the resulting cider will have tendency do ferment
>relatively quickly. But if I wait until the apples become very ripe or
>slightly overripe, the resulting cider will be much slowlier....
>Could it be that Nitrogen would evaporate from the ripening apples?
Yes this was 2-1/2 years ago...
Following this post, there was a (fairly technical) discussion that lasted
until CD#1437. In particular, Con reported that he had measured that the N
level doesn't change much in storage, but Andrew suggested that the form of
N may change from amino acid (usable by the yeast) into a protein (not
usable anymore) and that this could explain the observation of slower
fermentation. Further, this phenomenon had been reported before in
Charlier/Warcollier.
I am coming back to this because I am currently reading "Fermented Beverage
Production" - by the way, this book is not exactly easy vacation reading
for the beach...
Anyway, in page 19 of 2nd edition (this is not the chapter on cider by
Andrew, but chapter 1 on fermentable extracts by Paterson, Swanston and
Piggot) it is written:
"It is commonly believed that juices from dessert apples contain more amino
acids than those from cider apples and that juices produced with apples
from younger trees have higher contents than those from older trees. Amino
acids contents of juices decrease with storage, largely as a result of the
Maillard browning that takes place. This is in addition to the enzymatic
reactions in which coupling of fruit phenols to polyphenols is promoted by
the oxidative action of phenol oxidases."
The first sentence is fine... I totally agree that cider apples would
ferment slowlier, and that juice from older trees also.
The second sentence immediately made me think of this discussion we had
2-1/2 years ago - if amino acids content decrease with apple storage, this
would correlate with my observation that stored apples ferment slowlier.
But what is the Maillard browning?
And I must admit I didn't really understand the 3rd sentence... Does it
mean something in relation with this subject?
Claude
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Subject: Redfield once more
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2010 09:37:20 -0600
I remembered a couple comments I wanted to add to the thread about Redfield
a while back.
WRT Jim Cummins' comment about the trees being lanky: Well, yes, and they
do need pruning attention. But the offset to that, in what I've found,
is that I don't find myself thinking as I do with other varieties, "I
wish you'd put out some branches!!" The Redfield branches exuberantly;
as a result one can pick-and-choose branches for good structure.
WRT Redfield as a cider (comments by Ben Watson and Rob Miller): Folks
should realize that the West County "Redfield" is not a single-variety
cider. Redfield fruit by itself is seriously sharp and rather bitter;
it wants some blending. I suppose someone could make a 100%-Redfield
cider, but it's not something I'd seek out.
(and "Blending is the cidermaker's art.")
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1573
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