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Cider Digest #1601
Subject: Cider Digest #1601, 16 December 2010
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1601 16 December 2010
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #1600, 13 December 2010 (Bill Rhyne)
Re: A Question for Digestion on Headspace (Dick Dunn)
Re: Bottle Bombs (MeadGuild@aol.com)
Washington State (John Mott)
Re: Bottle Bombs While Pasteurizing (Dick Dunn)
Inter-stem tree spacing and vigor (Steven Edholm)
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1600, 13 December 2010
From: Bill Rhyne <bill_rhyne@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 09:38:54 -0800 (PST)
RE: Bottle bombs
Bill Rhyne here. When Rhyne Cyder did bottle pasteurization, we used
champagne glass as that was also our concept--apple champagne. If you want
smaller bottles, 375ml champagne glass is available but it may be a special
order so expensive. I think that we paid $18 per case of 24 bottles years
ago. We were doing a special version for a customer.
As Rich Anderson suggested, leave some space in the bottle as the liquid
expands. We used bottle caps on the champagne bottles. Occasionally
a bottle would explode in the tank. We did 360 bottles per batch and
heated the water to 150-160 degrees F. We had several bottles open with
a thermometer to measure the temperature when we were first learning to
pasteurize. Then we built a SS tank with four location for thermometers
to make sure that the water heat was even. The yeast are on the bottom of
the bottle so that is where the heat needs to be. We found a significant
differential between the neck and the bottom of the bottle. Our tank was
designed to deal with that issue.
Anyway, we don't make any cider anymore but the cider from our library
reserve still tastes good after 10 years in the bottle.
Cheers!
Bill Rhyne
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Subject: Re: A Question for Digestion on Headspace
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2010 20:10:54 -0700
Dave Catherman asked (in CD 1599):
> Is it necessary to avoid headspace above the fermenting cider? If you have
> a vessel with some volume not occupied by cider, would it not fill with a
> protective layer of CO2?
As long as it's actively fermenting, yes. During initial stages, that is
while the cider is pushing gas out through the airlock, you're good.
> Perhaps the no-headspace consideration applies only to secondary
> fermentation or storage of finished product...
Yes, that's where the problems can start. It's -slightly- more subtle
than that.
>...since a large headspace in that
> case would really be air introduced during racking and then the obvious
> risks would exist...
The other consideration is that racking (usually) removes a lot of CO2.
You can use a CO2 system to fill the headspace, to prevent oxidation,
but with that you've got to account for restoring the cider to its
CO2 balance. That means adding CO2 along the way after racking.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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Subject: Re: Bottle Bombs
From: MeadGuild@aol.com
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 02:06:28 EST
My childbride will tell you that I have NEVER had a bottle bomb. It is
NOT because I am a superior maker Mead or Cider. It is because I live in fear
of displeasing my her. The secret to my success is placing all bottles of
Mead and Cider into a cardboard six pack holder, placing all six pack
holders into a plastic container, and covering all of that with a plastic
garbage bag. It may be devious, but it works!
Dick
- ---
Richard D. Adams, CPA (Retired)
Ellicott City, Maryland
------------------------------
Subject: Washington State
From: John Mott <john@johnmott.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Dec 2010 09:53:30 -0500
My wife Judy and I are presently attending Peter Mitchell's advanced
cidermaking course in Mt Vernon this week and then remaining in the
state for 5 days of touring. If there are any commercial cidermakers
on the list who are up for a visit, we would appreciate hearing from
you.
John Mott
Kimbereley, Ontario
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Bottle Bombs While Pasteurizing
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 15:16:14 -0700
In CD 1599, Kevin Luke discussed his problems with exploding bottles after
pasteurizing. Rich Anderson's comments on checking fill level and CO2
quantity are right on...but after re-reading Kevin's article, something
else occurred to me. Kevin said:
> ...I use the "thermometer in a bottle
> filled with water" method to make sure I reach a safe temperature to kill
> the bad stuff, and that works just fine. I start removing them at about 160
> degrees F, and by the time I set down the basket, it is usually somewhere
> between 162 and 165. My fireworks begin when I lift the basket full of
> bottles. ...
Kevin, is there a chance you're "shocking" the bottles--either physically
or thermally? If the bottles are right at the limit of their safe pressure
when they're that hot, a slight bump could prompt a failure. Likewise, if
the temperature outside the bottles drops rapidly and unevenly, that could
push a weak one over the edge.
The points above are really secondary, since what you've told us suggests
that you're right on the hairy edge with the bottles you're using (and the
headspace and CO2). But they might explain the failures at the particular
time they're happening for you.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Inter-stem tree spacing and vigor
From: Steven Edholm <stevene@pacific.net>
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 15:31:08 -0800
I'm planning out the spacing on some inter-stem trees and could use
some input. the trees are bud 9 over m111. Recommended tree spacing
for bud 9 from various internet sources is quite variable with
little discussion of site and orientation. I have found tree vigor
info for most of the cultivars, but would appreciate any feedback on
the accuracy of those re: personal experience.
I live in the Northern California coastal mountains. The weather is
not as hot as a lot of California, but it isn't exactly cool in the
summer either. There is no significant rainfall june through
October. The trees will be planted in a row roughly North to South.
The conditions after establishment will be mostly unirrigated, but
possibly mulched. I was inclined to do a 10 foot spacing on the more
vigorous trees and an 8 foot spacing on the smaller trees. I think
the conditions here of no rain in the summers will have an affect on
the size of the trees, but then I think that the inter-stem trees
will grow larger than straight bud 9 trees and this is supported by
the size of inter-stem trees v.s. straight bud 9 trees in my nursery
row... the inter-stem trees being obviously more vigorous on the
average. So now I'm wondering if a 12 foot spacing for vigorous
varieties and 10 foot for smaller wouldn't be better. Since there is
a ridge to the west and some trees to the south east, most of the sun
hits this area in the morning to mid afternoon in the summer and
mostly mid day during the fall. It seems like it might be prudent to
leave a little more space for light admission between the trees
rather than having just enough room. I know one common line of
thought is to give dry farmed trees extra room, but then I think
there is a logic to benefiting from climate modification from closer
planting. However, this is a single row of trees along a drive.
Thoughts anyone? Any experience and recommendations on inter-stem
trees would also be great.
Input on tree vigor and growth habits of the variety list below would
also be much appreciated. My sources for this information are
totally random, basically anything I could find anywhere. Some are
varieties are grafted in multiples as I know they do well here while
others are single trees for testing as to compatibility with my
growing conditions and cider quality.
Yarlington mill Vigorous, spreading and tip bearing
Muscat De Bernay: Vigorous
Tale Sweet: unknown
Harry Master's Jersey: Compact and tip bearing
Somerset Redstreak: Vigorous upright
Ellis' Bitter: Unknown vigor, tip bearing?
Kingston Black: Small to Med.
Stoke Red: Med, spreading, slow growing
Dabbinet: small
Muscat de Dieppe: Vigorous
Wickson: Vigorous, upright
King David: Vigorous, Spreading
Court Royal: Very vigorous
Ashmeads: Med
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End of Cider Digest #1601
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