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Cider Digest #1623
Subject: Cider Digest #1623, 31 March 2011
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1623 31 March 2011
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
RE: Bag in Box for small producers (lotic@juno.com)
dosage ("Wildfire Cider")
Re: bag-in-box for small producers? (Dick Dunn)
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
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Subject: RE: Bag in Box for small producers
From: lotic@juno.com
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 13:32:34 -0400
Dear Cider Digesters,
For bag-in-box, you might want to check out the "Cheertainer" from CDF
Corp.
They're out of Plymouth, MA, USA (I think).
I have a few of their 1.5L bags, and some of their "spigot" caps.(yes,
they come in a variety of sizes and cap types)
Good price (pennies per bag), but I think you have to buy at least a
gross (144).
That's OK, as they will last forever, and you get a discount for buying
in bulk.
They come aseptic. So, you don't have to pre-wash and sterilize them. (I
still do.)
They sell semi-automatic filling machines for several thousand dollars,
but they also sell a small bag-holder for manual filling.
I haven't made boxes for them (yet), as I think I'll stick with bottles
(despite the expense, weight, and bulk).
Folks still equate bags with "low rent" cider and wine. (Their loss, but
that's public perception for ya)
A word of caution: you had better be CERTAIN your product is still.
(Unless you don't mind balloons, ruptures, and "fountains" of cider from
the bag.)
Also, you might want to consider the fact that almost ALL flexible
plastic will transfer oxygen over time. Meaning: your product will not
last as long in a plastic bag as it will in glass.
Also, there is a public fear of BPA from plastics. I'm not sure of the
veracity of this fear, but the fear exists.
Here's the link to the CDF Cheertainer:
http://www.cdf1.com/cheertainer.php
Someday, I hope someone will manufacture a thick 1L FOIL bag with a
re-sealable pour spout. I saw something like this from Australia a few
years back, but never could find out the manufacturer (some place in the
far east, no doubt). The beauty of foil is that A: it is O2 proof, and B:
you can print right onto the bag. (Australia used to sell milk in bags,
and you'd initially purchase a pitcher to hold the bag. - not a bad idea
for table wine and cider)
- - Peter Mitchell (no, the OTHER Peter Mitchell)
PS- CDF also makes 100, 200, 300, 500 US Gallon foil bags (for bulk
transport of liquid food products - think "syrup" or "juice
concentrate"). I have been experimenting with using these as fermenters.
I have been using IBC crates to hold the shape of the bag, and to move
them around the mill. The good points are that the 300 Gal. foil bags
cost about $35 each, are aseptic food grade, are foil, and you simply use
a new bag when you rack (no cleaning!). The bad points are that you have
to allow for almost no positive pressure in the bag, as it is not
designed hold pressure. Use several airlocks to allow for the gasses to
escape (yes, I have lost a few 100 gallons through bag ruptures). Also,
it is difficult to get every last drop out of the bag. Also, also, it is
best to inflate the bag before filling (I use a tank of CO2). This will
get the bag "in-shape" before filling as you really can't straighten out
any folds in the bag after it is filled (300 gallons weighs about 2400
pounds - you'll tear the bag before you move it). Again, they are not
designed to hold pressure, so carefully fill them with gas and liquid.
Unless CDF makes them a LOT beefier (which they won't), I'm sticking with
SS tanks.
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Subject: dosage
From: "Wildfire Cider" <snpbishop@waypt.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 09:43:04 -0700
We have been experimenting with adding a lightly sweetened dosage to
our champagne style cider before the final corking. My question is "How
can this be done without losing half the bottle and the carbonation?"
As long as we only use well chilled, dry cider, there is no problem, but my
understanding is that often at this point the final sweetness is determined.
Am I missing a critical step? Thank you,
Nancy Bishop
Alpenfire Cider
------------------------------
Subject: Re: bag-in-box for small producers?
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 17:07:17 -0600
Re Dick Adams comment,
> Scholle is a bag-in-box manufacturer. Their North American Rep
> suggested contacting wineries. He mentioned English Estates...
I hope English Estates didn't get a flood of inquiries! If anybody did
contact them, what was the result? I'd rather not be bothering someone
who isn't in the BiB business per se.
Scholle's response is disappointing...you'd think they would -want- to
sell their products! Yes, many of us are small producers, but (a) a
number of small customers can add up to a large quantity, and (b) small
customers have been known to become larger customers over time.
Actually the BiB un-availability is one of a number of examples of how
small cidermakers in the US can't find products/services/ resources that
we know exist elsewhere, particularly in the UK. Other just-f'rinstance
are finding suitable small pumps, or small presses without DIY. And
there's the rootstock challenge if you're not planting a full section of
trees.
We need a Vigo, a Jigsaw, a bottle/cap supplier, etc., who won't
balk at small orders. Or, to back up a bit, we need to find ways to
organize or collaborate so that we can make these needs known and give
businesses the opportunity to meet them.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1623
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