Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Cider Digest #1615
Subject: Cider Digest #1615, 23 February 2011
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1615 23 February 2011
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #1614, 13 February 2011 (Claude Jolicoeur)
Re: Weak Yeast; Naturally sweet cider (Terry Bradshaw)
Ray Williams (Andrew Lea)
Scion request (Steven Edholm)
NOTE: Digest appears whenever there is enough material to send one.
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider#Archives
Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1614, 13 February 2011
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 21:56:49 -0500
In Cider Digest #1614, 13 February 2011
>Subject: Re: Weak yeast
>From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
>Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:57:50 -0700
>>...You can try a keeve but I don't recommend it any
>> more,it's fairly unpredictable and a real PITA...
>
>I've avoided keeving for those reasons, but do other folks who do keeving
>feel like it's become more predictable with the enzyme (and possibly Ca)
>treatments? Or is it still a crapshoot for the home/small cidermaker?
To Dick and Terry,
My feeling is that keeve is quite predictable and reliable IF you have the
right apples and juice...
When I follow these simple rules, I have 100% success...
- - I need to use my late ripening varieties.
- - the keeve batch is one of my last presses of the season, the apples are
then quite soft, very ripe to slightly overripe.
- - low temperature in the cider room (10-12C max)
- - select high SG juice (1.060 and higher)
And my apples come from old standard trees that are unfertilized.
My feeling is that the N level needs to be very low to start with - this
will prevent the fermentation to start before the gel forms itself.
Then, I think the almost overripe state does something to the pectins in
the fruit (and maybe also to the enzymes) that favors the phenomenon.
Mind you, with apples such as described, it is almost unnessary to do a
keeve as, even without keeving, fermentation stops around 1.008 to 1.012.
But with a keeve, the same juice will stop fermenting from exhaustion of
nutrients at around 1.020 to 1.025, sometimes even higher.
Where the keeve IS unpredictable is for predicting at what SG the
fermentation will stop. Often this is too high and for this I have started
working with minute dosage of yeast nutrients, and I now know pretty
exactly how much I need to make the SG drop from say 1.030 to 1.020.
Claude
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Weak Yeast; Naturally sweet cider
From: Terry Bradshaw <terryb@lostmeadowvt.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 06:17:41 -0500
Answering a few questions on my 'lazyman's French cider' technique
here. I never realized I was so groundbreaking!
> If it isn't too much trouble could you please tell me more about the
> filtration setup you used: Source for plate filter,tubing fittings,filter
> media,pump, its size, etc. ???
My filter came from morewinemaking.com,
(http://morewinemaking.com/view_product/5676//Plate_Filter) although
it's in the Crosby and Baker catalog so any local homebrew shop should
be able to get it. Pads, tubes, etc from the same place. I do not use a
pump on this; I have before and it wasn't pretty. Using two kegs and
CO2, no more than 12 psi, you get a gentle push through the pads without
forcing them and causing tears in the pads or cracks in the housing.
This also keeps oxidation down. Repeat, do not use this filter with a
pump. Maybe a centrifugal one throttled down to low pressure, but by the
time you buy one of those you can get a real wine filter.
>
> I am very interested in that, Terry. Can you make it work reliably year
> on year? And how long does the cider store in that state? And what SG do
> you typically bottle it at? I like your idea of controlling a cultured
> yeast by low dose and low temperature - most of us have felt that a weak
> wild mixed yeast (with all its unpredictability) was the only way. Have
> you ever measured the YAN levels of the apples?
>
> Andrew
Nope, never measured YAN, and my apples vary but generally are on the
lower-fertilized end of things. I have been doing this reliably for at
least 3-4 years, and have perfectly good 2008 cider on draft now. The
key is that it's not bottled, and I think it will keep much better in
the keg, shy of a sterile bottling line. I bottle some off the keg for
gifts, but wouldn't trust them for too long. Bottling (actually kegging)
happens anywhere under S.G. 1.015.
>> ...Rather, lightly (say, 50
>> ppm) sulfite the juice off the press, then pitch 1/3 to 1/2 the
>> recommended dose of Epernay or Cotes des Blancs yeast, then get it into
>> a cool (<50 F) spot...
>
> Why the reduced dose? I realized I do this myself but I'm not sure I can
> justify it! Unless you're also hoping for some wild-yeast activity,
> doesn't it just delay the fermentation? That is, won't the yeast
> population eventually build up to where it would have been with a "full
> dose"? I'm not criticizing the technique; I just don't understand (even
> though I've acted as if I did:)
>
The reduced SO2 dose gives me room to add more at kegging and filtering
down the road. I like to keep it all below 100-150 total added ppm, so
lighter dosing at the front allows more room at racking and filtering. I
forgot to mention here, I do rack once, adding 25-50 ppm sulfite then. I
also like the idea of maybe picking up a little wild/Kloeckera yeast, if
it happens.
>> Transfer to a keg and dose with 25-5- ppm sulfite. Now set up a plate
>> filter between one keg and another, run through a 0.5 micron pad, and
>> voila- sweet, sparkling cider...
> (Was the "25-5-" a typo for 25-50? Are you really able to go straight
> to 0.5 micron dependably? Or do you
> (sometimes) need coarser pads first?
Yes, typo. 25-50 ppm sulfite added at filtering to the second, receiving
keg prior to filling. The beauty there is that after filtering into the
receiving keg, it never need to be opened until empty, which helps with
shelf life.
As for the coarse then fine pad question, yes, I prefilter with a 2 or 5
micron pad. i just gang two filters together and do it in one step,
check the picture
(http://applepressvt.blogspot.com/2008_02_01_archive.html). Also, notice
that the filters are contained; they will leak, so a tub of some sort is
necessary to keep the mess to a minimum. I ran 30 gallons of cider and
wine through one set (2 and 0.5 micron) of pads recently.
A word of warning, these are not true sterile filters, and any
subsequent bottling operation could also allow yeast or bacteria to get
in, so I feel that this is best done for kegged and served ciders. You
can bottle off the keg, but expect shorter shelf life and possibly
refermenation and all the broken glass that may come with it.
Hope I answered everyone's questions well enough.
TB
------------------------------
Subject: Ray Williams
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@harphill.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 09:40:20 +0000
Many of you will know the name of Ray Williams, the British cider and
perry pomologist; a few of you may even have met him. He was well
connected overseas. Sadly, news has reached me that he passed away last
month. He had retired from the Long Ashton Research Station in the mid
80's when the cider research programme was terminated, but continued to
work as an adviser and consultant to cider growers large and small until
relatively recent years. His legacy will last in his writings and in the
many cider orchards planted following his advice and wisdom over the
last half-century. Those of us who knew him will remember him as a good
scientist and as a cheerful and delightful colleague.
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford, UK.
------------------------------
Subject: Scion request
From: Steven Edholm <stevene@pacific.net>
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 14:27:07 -0800
I'm looking for the following cider varieties as scions. If anyone
would like to do a good turn and send them to me I would be grateful and
gladly pay shipping. A couple of them I'm not sure are actually in the
states yet. I just need a stick of each.
I might have some stuff to trade (cider and non cider) too and can send
a list, but things are starting to look like they might be waking up
with the unseasonably warm weather, so I would have to get wood cut
soon. Sorry for the last minute request, but I've been wallowing in
scion lists and trades and sources and just getting it all sorted.
White Close Pippin
Chisel Jersey
Cadbury
Taliaffero (whatever the main contender, circulating as, is)
Harrison
Ashton Brown Jersey
Redfield
Centennial Crab
Whitney Crab
May pole (red fleshed)
Steven In California
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1615
*************************
