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Cider Digest #1501
Subject: Cider Digest #1501, 4 May 2009
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1501 4 May 2009
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Porters Perfection & Major ("Rich Anderson")
RE: Cider Digest #1500, 1 May 2009 ("Rich Anderson")
Re: Stoke Red ("Ray Blockley")
More bee stuff ("Ray Blockley")
Apple Varieties (Jason MacArthur)
fermenting (John Mott)
Stoke Red (Andrew Lea)
What to plant this spring (Frank Stevens)
Happy 1500! (Frank Stevens)
Re: Stoke Red, Porters, and Major (Dick Dunn)
Pound pears for making Perry (tokolosh@penalvagold.net)
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Subject: Porters Perfection & Major
From: "Rich Anderson" <rhanderson@centurytel.net>
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 17:59:04 -0700
I grow Porters and have over a 100 trees on M9 (Zone 8), they tend to be
biennial but with this many trees there always seems to be good crop. When
they bear, they produce a lot fruit. You can tell Porters by their habit of
having fruit doublets even triplets, two-three apples on a stem. They ripen
mid to late fall, hang well and store well. Porters makes a good sharp cider
and I use it extensively to balance low acid bittersweets. The tree manages
well on a vertical axis but gets out of control if not pruned regularly. In
my judgment, despite its biennialism it is an excellent cider variety.
I was interested in Major a number of years ago when I was planning what to
plant, but had difficulty finding bud wood and was not convinced that the
Major I was finding in the US antique orchards was the same variety grown in
the UK for cider. I think Dr. Lea has one in his orchard and can comment on
this. Given the difficulty in bring in scion wood from UK legally I never
followed up.
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1500, 1 May 2009
From: "Rich Anderson" <rhanderson@centurytel.net>
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 18:29:22 -0700
Well tending 1000 issues is no small feat, thank you for the effort. I
always enjoy reading the Digest, although I have not contributed much
lately. One idea for new comers would be to have a reference page with links
to other cider sites, books, clubs etc. I think that given the readership we
could come up with a comprehensive list in no time.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Stoke Red
From: "Ray Blockley" <rayblockley@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 09:32:04 +0100
Eric asked about Stoke Red, Porter's Perfection and Major.
Hi Eric,
>From a UK perspective:
I only have one Stoke Red, a standard on an M25 (very vigorous)
rootstock - I should also have been planting 6 or so Majors over the
winter but someone messed the order up.... I am planting more Stoke Reds
(and the Majors...) this coming fall, all as whips / maidens.
My experience of Stoke Red is as follows:
Growth is *very* twiggy and trying to prune it into any recognisable
shape is a nightmare. I gave up on trying to get a centre-leader shape a
couple of years ago. The twiggy nature leads to lots of crossing
branches and rubbing. It is a real birds nest unless you can keep on top
of it all the time.
Cropping is quite good, but it was slow to come into bearing. There is
no obvious biennialism.
The biggest problem I have with my Stoke Red is a tendency towards
canker (found more to cut out yesterday...) and also powdery(?) mildew,
which seems to affect much of the new growth. Note that I do not spray
the tree though, so this may be able to be controlled if you choose to
go down that path. the canker has always appeared at the junction of two
branches or where the bark is distorted by the growth of a new branch.
Such is the case with the new bit I found yesterday.
Blossom tends to be quite late - later than anything else I grow - and
the fruit here is ready by November.
It makes a good cider though I usually use it in a blend, where it
always makes it's presence felt. One of the Welsh boys makes an
excellent very dry sparkling (Methode Champenoise) Stoke Red cider -
worth a try if you see any "Troggi" bottled ciders on your travels.
As regards Major, I have visited a few folks here in the UK who grow it
and one cider-maker on "my" side of the UK (East of centre...) makes a
very good single-variety cider with Major. Listening to others'
experiences with Major and the fact that it is quite an early cropper,
convinced me to plant some.
Don't know if any of that helps, but good luck anyway. Let us know how
you get on.
Cheers,
Ray
http://hucknallciderco.blogspot.com/
------------------------------
Subject: More bee stuff
From: "Ray Blockley" <rayblockley@ntlworld.com>
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 10:05:30 +0100
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Happy 500th Birthday CD!
Anyway, a few more limited observations on bees from further north in the
UK than Andrew.
I've seen very, very few honey bees so far this year, but plenty of wild
bees. We have an exposed bank of soil with lots of clay and this is riddled
with solitary bee's tunnels and it is fun to watch them flying in and out
loaded with pollen; I'm hoping that most of this pollen has been collected
from my apple tress... Other bees frequent the same bank to collect -
clay? soil? minerals? The Bumble Bees seem a little more numerous this
year, but I have only seen a couple of species at most rather than the
quite wide selection I am used to. Early days maybe, but the blossom won't
wait for the bees.
Cheers,
Ray. Nottingham, UK.
------------------------------
Subject: Apple Varieties
From: Jason MacArthur <rotread@localnet.com>
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 07:45:50 -0400
There has been some discussion recently of specific varieties, and I
thought I would chime in with my experience.
Eric from NY state wondered about Stoke Red and Major, among
others. Here in my Vermont orchard, Major is a wonderful apple to
grow. It is vigorous but very productive. As my trees aren't that
old I can't really comment on the cider- this past year was the first
year I had enough fruit to really make a trial batch, and it is still
too young, although it seems promising.
Stoke Red is also productive, but very biennial and an awkward tree
to grow. As with Major, this is the first year I have been able to
taste the cider- high acid and tannin, as advertised, but again the
cider is young and difficult to judge.
I do spray for Plum Curculio, and sometimes have to for Potato
Leafhopper which likes the Major, but not for any diseases, and both
varieties are doing fine.
We made some cider from Ashmead's Kernel for several years, but gave
up, since as grown here at least, the acidity was way off the
charts. The discussion on the Digest reminded me that I still have a
few old dusty bottles though, so I pulled out an Ashmead's from 2003
and 2004. Both were wonderful- full of fruity character and a deep,
resinous quality. Neither tasted at all stale or faded. Both have
alcohol levels around 9% and I am definitely inspired to make more
next year, to use either for blending or maybe just to aly down for 5
years before drinking.
Jason MacArthur
Marlboro, VT
------------------------------
Subject: fermenting
From: John Mott <jrmott2@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 11:46:48 -0400
I wonder if anyone has experience with the fermenting of apples straight
from the crusher, without pressing - or can direct me to some literature on
the subject. This would not be feasible with small scale fermentation in a
carboy, but I am thinking of a ss tank.
John Mott
Beaver Valley Winery
Kimberley, ON
------------------------------
Subject: Stoke Red
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@HarpHill.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 03 May 2009 14:47:10 +0100
Eric wrote:
>
> I was just wondering if anyone out there could comment on Stoke
> Red. Porter's Perfection and Major. I have read what there is on these
> varieties but am curious of real grower and cider making experiences.
> Topics like disease resistance, precosity, productivity, and cider quality
> is what I am looking for.
I can only comment on Stoke Red and only from its behaviour in the UK.
Here it is highly regarded. No special disease problems that I've heard
or noted myself (indeed it is generally regarded as scab and mildew
resistant), not precocious, later flowering than many (mine is not out
yet whereas many others are). Grows neatly on dwarfing rootstocks but is
very twiggy and this may need some thinning out or management to avoid
internal clutter. Bright 'sealing wax red' fruits tend to be very small
in size so it takes much longer to pick / gather off the floor than many
other cider cvs.
Cider quality as a bittersharp is superb. Quite acid but one of the few
cider cvs (the other being Kingston Black) which makes a passable single
variety cider without blending. Not 'heavy' or richly tannic. Ferments
slowly - often a sign of high quality. Can be notably aromatic and this
does tend (unusually) to carry through to the finished cider. Julian
Temperley in Somerset makes an excellent single variety bottle fermented
Stoke Red where its qualities are well displayed. But it's good for
blending with less acid heavy bittersweet fruit too. Makes a passable
fresh juice as well but obviously with some 'bite' due to the tannin.
All in all, a top rank vintage cultivar.
Andrew Lea
Wittenham Hill Cider Pages
www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: What to plant this spring
From: Frank Stevens <moose49017@comcast.net>
Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 23:45:30 +0000 (UTC)
I want to thank everyone who offered advice on what trees I might plant
to start producing my own apples.
I purchased and planted six trees of 5 varieties on semi-dwarf stock. 2
Chestnut Crab, 1 Yellow Newton Pippin, 1 Calville Blanc , 1 Baldwin and
1 Gold Rush.
I think I got a good mix that covers the "family" for out of hand eating,
applesauce, dried apple rings and sweet cider and will still make Common
cider for me. Now I can consider more specific cider types.
I am interested in digest members thoughts about what varieties I might
consider in the fall to "fill" holes in tannin or acid profiles. Or
just favorite varieties in general. Better yet what varieties don't you
like! And why.
Thanks again,
Frank Stevens
Battle Creek, MI
------------------------------
Subject: Happy 1500!
From: Frank Stevens <moose49017@comcast.net>
Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 00:05:46 +0000 (UTC)
Congratulations to the digest on it's 1500 issue!
In honor I went out last night and pressed 15 gals. of cider.
With what I pressed before I have about 19 gals. ready to go.
When I went to get my heritage trees they let me glean 7 1/2 bushels from
the cooler of last years crop at an excellent price.
It was my first chance to taste and see varieties I had only read about.
Some varieties of course were long turned to mush but there were about 10
or so varieties that had held up real well.
I'm pretty sure they don't taste like they normally do. About the only
one that had any tart left was some Stayman Winesap. The two out standing
examples of a long keeper were Arkansas Black and Celestial. I've bought
apples in worse shape at the grocery store than these two.
I have some set back for the family...but if I press them I'll get at
least 3 gals. more.
I'll post later with a variety rundown and some sg. readings. and ask
some advice about using such ripe apples to there best.
Frank Stevens
Battle Creek, MI
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Stoke Red, Porters, and Major
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 21:46:17 -0600
Eric ? (devamaas@hotmail.com) asked about 3 varieties. My experience plus
direct observations of others...
Stoke Red: excellent bittersharp, but rather small apples. Trees are
twiggy and tedious to prune...I thought my little ones were annoying,
but we saw some standard size at Burrow Hill (Somerset). I can't imagine
how (or if) Julian gets those things pruned! Think pterodactyl nest.
VERY late blooming...never give up on Stoke Red in the spring thinking
the trees have died. Also, trees have been slow to mature here. But
no particular disease problems.
Porter's Perfection: Why is it named "perfection" when the fruit is weird
so often?!? Twinned fruits are common; triples and more form. See:
http://www.talisman.com/cider/porter.jpg
for an example. I had that from Alan Foster in Oregon; my trees aren't
bearing yet. The fruit from Alan's was very good. PP is a bittersharp,
but while his fruit was sharp it wasn't strongly tannic. Oh, again the
fruit is quite small, maybe only the diameter of a quarter or 10p.
Major: Good bittersweet for a blend. Since Eric is in the US, likely
he's got our perpetual problem of getting enough low-acid fruit. Major
is great to offset that--nice tannins (mostly "soft" or astringent), good
sugar, low acidity. My trees have come along relatively quickly. Fruit
matures early for me. However, I have had fireblight problems, even on
"resistant" rootstock, e.g., I lost one on G-30. (Fireblight is a serious
problem in our area, so if you don't have it too bad, you should be OK.)
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Pound pears for making Perry
From: tokolosh@penalvagold.net
Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 18:43:10 +1000
Does anyone out there have any experience of making Perry from Pound
Pears (the variety).
We have some available and are going to give it a go, but interested
to hear from those with more knowledge.
thanks
Warwick in Australia
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End of Cider Digest #1501
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