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Cider Digest #1512
Subject: Cider Digest #1512, 17 June 2009
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1512 17 June 2009
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Early racking (Andrew Lea)
Re: Additional Ingredients? (Mike Faul)
RE: repelling deer (chris horn)
Apples in stereo (Josh Klatt)
Used Equipment Sources buy/sell/trade??? (lotic@juno.com)
New UK-based Discussion Group (Andrew Lea)
Re: Early racking. (Dick Dunn)
NOTE: Digest appears whenever there is enough material to send one.
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Early racking
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@HarpHill.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:33:46 +0100
Duncan Galletly wrote:
> Occasionally with certain apples however, over the next few
> days the juice will clear quite markedly, before fermentation starts,
> leaving a heavy deposit on the bottom of the fermentation vessel.
> There is no chapeau brun as might be expected with a natural keeving
> and the clarity of the juice is perhaps not as bright as a keeved
> cider. My question however is to whether there is value, if this
> happens, to rack the clear juice off the sediment before fermentation
> starts as one would do with a keeved cider? Would the resulting juice
> have a lower nitrogen content similar to a naturally keeved juice, or
> is the nitrogen loss with keeving primarily from removal of the
> floating pectate gel.
I suspect it will have little value. Most of what drops to the bottom
before fermentation is starch granules and (neutral?) cell debris,
though there may be some natural enzymic clarification. Any
nutrients attracted to the debris will just float off again since it's
totally immersed in liquid. The chapeau brun differs (a)
because it rises outside the liquid and (b) it is a negatively charged
pectate gel which attracts the positively charged asparagine and
thiamine. I feel that if a simpler technique worked reliably, it would
already be well known! Having said all that, I think Gary Awdey may have
done some trials which contradict my view, and perhaps if he has the
time to reply he will!
If you live in a winemaking country (such as NZ!) you could check this
hypothesis and at minimal cost have a 'before' and 'after' juice tested
for YAN (yeast available nitrogen) and maybe even for thiamine by a wine
analysis laboratory.
Here's a related side thought for chemists / biochemists / process
engineers. Somebody once suggested to me that instead of going through
all the keeving mess and the chapeau nonsense, the addition of a weak
cation exchange resin to the juice would do just what keeving does, by
adsorbing positively charged nutrients. Then, after a few days, strain
it out and let the low-nutrient fermentation proceed! The resin could
easily be cleaned and regenerated for next year. Anyone able to try this?
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford, UK
www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Additional Ingredients?
From: Mike Faul <mfaul@faul.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:35:18 -0700
We do the same thing here at Red Branch Cider Co. All of ours are
technically a 'cyser' 50/50 apple juice and honey then have added fruit
juices added prior to bottling/kegging. Black Cherry, Peach, Lemon,
Rasperry and of course just a plain apple & honey.
Mike
>
> Subject: Re: Additional Ingredients?
> From: "Charles McGonegal" <cpm@aeppeltreow.com>
> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 18:25:28 -0500
>
> In Cider Digest #1508, 5 June 2009, Bruce Kahn wrote:
>
>> Subject: Additional Ingredients?
>>
>> Confessions of an Adulterer
>>
>> I would like to know what ingredients (besides apple juice) do people add
>> to their hard cider, and which have been most interesting.
>> .....
>>
>
> At AEppelTreow, we flavor our draft cider series with fruit juices just
> prior to kegging. Apple, cranberry, strawberry/raspberry. Oh, and then one
> is has spices steeped in the (steel) barrel during aging.
>
> Have fun with your experiments.
> Charles
> AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: RE: repelling deer
From: chris horn <agent_strangelove@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 13:20:17 -0700
I tried the garlic based repellants with no luck. I figured I would have
to fence.
I ended up fighting with the county over building a fence to enclose about
1/2 acre. They wanted full plans. Well being an engineer, whipped up
a set of plans to state wildlife guidelines (78" tall plus 1 strand of
barb wire over the top of that). I had no problem finding 10' t-posts
at the vineyard supply store down the valley and matching 5" wooden posts
(for the corners and gate posts).
I think if the deer were starving they would go over it but there is
enough other stuff for them to eat that they don't go over the fence
for my whip bed or veggie garden.
If anyone else runs into issues, I can supply my plans as a guide lines.
Thanks
Chris Horn
Scappoose Oregon
'Life is like riding a bicycle- in order to keep your balance=2C you must
keep moving.'
-Albert Einstein
------------------------------
Subject: Apples in stereo
From: Josh Klatt <josh@joshklatt.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:37:33 -0400
Hey all--
I'm a part-time orchardist and cider maker (when I make it to the
family farm in SE Ohio) and full-time photographer and stereographer
in NYC. I'm starting a project this year that aims to become a handy
reference for orchardists, cider-makers and fruit lovers alike. I'm
making stereoscopic 3D photographs of every apple variety I can get
my hands on and putting together a reference I hope we can all use.
It'll be available online and searchable by any # of useful criteria
for orchardists and/or foodies, from tasting notes to pest
susceptibility and beyond... I see it taking the form of an open
source "wiki" kind of thing... I've been inspired by Tom Burford's
excellent book and aspire to create a similar type of reference but
focused on the visuals-- and in stereoscopic 3D! I hope to start
soon as some of the early summer apples start to become available--
I can get the usual suspects at the farmers' market, but where the
hell can a guy find a bramtot, etc.? I'm also interested in shooting
unique seedling apples too-- My uncle's 40 yr. old seedling tree is
in my lineup already. It's a super-late bearing small fruit that
ripens to a pink on the inside--
Anybody wanna put in their 2 cents or donate an apple?
I've planted 45 varities (many for cider) in my folks' orchard, but
they are all on Antanovka and have only been in the ground 2 years,
so it'll be a while before they give me anything to photograph. I'll
be at Cider day in MA this fall-- but in the mean time I don't want
to miss out on any of the early ones ... What's the first apple of
2009 I'll be seeing at the greenmarket in nyc this summer?
If you don't already have your red/cyan 3D glasses, I can send you a
free pair, if you send me an email. Look for the progress on my
website:
http://joshklatt.com/
Thanks!
Josh
917/365-9075
josh@joshklatt.com
------------------------------
Subject: Used Equipment Sources buy/sell/trade???
From: lotic@juno.com
Date: Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:03:41 -0400
I am just starting out, and need some equipment and have some equipment
to sell.
I have never seen any mention of this on cider-digest, but I want to sell
a couple of hydraulic presses so that I can buy some fermenters.
(WEBMASTER: If this is "wrong" to do this here, please let me know. ALSO,
where does one buy and sell cider equipment???)
[Janitor's notes:
1. This is OK; big equipment like this is rare enough it shouldn't be
a problem...as long as people take the negotiations off-line.
If it became common, we'd find a separate way to let it happen.
2. I don't know of equipment exchanges; that's a question for the
readership. Speak up, folks.
- --Dick]
I have two presses:
Hydraulic Press 1: 36". Rack and cloth. 110v - single phase. dual sided.
New hydraulic lines. Blasted and re-painted. 8" single ram (I estimate
about 65,000 pounds). New SS top plate. ~40 plastic racks. ~50 nylon
cloths (~25 new). It's set up in my mill right now. I'll need some
significant notice to take it apart and get it ready for loading. I
estimate the weight at about 2.5 tons (US).
Hydraulic Press 2: 24" Rack and cloth. 110v - single phase. single sided.
Good condition. No racks (Ok, there are some wood racks, but my BOH says,
"no way"). No cloths. It's a one-piece unit. I estimate the weight at
about 1 ton (or a little less).
Peter Mitchell
lotic@juno.com
Hawley, MA, USA (Western Mass. - I can load them on your trailer or
truck, but you must pick it up)
------------------------------
Subject: New UK-based Discussion Group
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@HarpHill.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 22:26:52 +0100
I'd like to mention the creation of a new UK-based discussion group and
website for matters around craft cider. It's called the Cider Workshop
and you can find it and sign up to the Google group here
http://www.ciderworkshop.com/
It's been set up by Jez Howat with help from a few of us who were
unhappy with the way UKCider was being managed, and had either left or
had been booted off! It includes myself and a number of familiar
contributors to this list as part of the management team. It's not in
opposition to any existing groups (certainly not the Cider Digest!) but
complementary to them. It's early days yet (only a month in), and the
website in particular is still being put together (a team effort
co-ordinated by Jez), but you'd be very welcome to sign up and join us.
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford, UK
www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Early racking.
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 16:03:27 -0600
Duncan Galletly <duncan.galletly@otago.ac.nz> wrote about juice dropping
clear in an unusual way:
>...I think I am following a reasonably standard sequence of pressing, and
> then adding an appropriate dose of sulphite, placing the airlock,
> cooling (10-15 C), and waiting for a natural fermentation to take
> place. Occasionally with certain apples however, over the next few
> days the juice will clear quite markedly, before fermentation starts,
> leaving a heavy deposit on the bottom of the fermentation vessel.
> There is no chapeau brun as might be expected with a natural keeving
> and the clarity of the juice is perhaps not as bright as a keeved
> cider...
Gary Awdey has done a lot of experimentation with keeving, and has reported
an occasional case of what he calls a "bottom keeve"--clearing as much as
if a regular keeve had occurred, but everything going to the bottom instead
of lifting in a cap. This might be what's happening.
I'm giving this short, tentative response because Gary's up-to-the-ears
busy just now and it might be a while before he can compare what you
describe to what he's seen...but he did say he'll get to it.
>...My question however is to whether there is value, if this
> happens, to rack the clear juice off the sediment before fermentation
> starts as one would do with a keeved cider?...
[possibility of reduced nitrogen vs risk of contamination]
The risk shouldn't be too bad if you've just sulphited and you're careful--
it's not much different than keeving. It would allow you to avoid some
of the initial fermentation mess.
As to whether this is actually reducing nitrogen: Short of lab work, I
don't see a better way than just to try it! If you know that you can
expect the effect with certain apples, try to get two batches of juice.
Rack one, leave the other alone, and see how the fermentation goes.
If the racked one is a lot slower, you've got a case for a "keeve".
BTW, you didn't say what's different or characteristic about the apples
with which this occurs.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1512
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