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Cider Digest #1499
Subject: Cider Digest #1499, 29 April 2009
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1499 29 April 2009
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Cider Book (chris horn)
Re. Pollination (EREC GRIM)
Re: Cider Digest #1498, 27 April 2009 (Tim Brod)
RE: Pollination ("W. Douglas Hofius, AIA, LEED AP")
Re: Cider Digest #1498, 27 April 2009 (Tim Brod)
Re: Cider Digest #1498, 27 April 2009 ("Ed Vendely")
British cider in the US (Dick Dunn)
Re: Pollination/pollinators (Bill)
Re: What would you plant this spring (Dan Spoelstra)
Re: Cider Digest #1498, 27 April 2009 (jar18)
Re: Pollination (Dick Dunn)
Re: Pollination (Donald Davenport)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Cider Book
From: chris horn <agent_strangelove@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:55:03 -0700
I have an extra copy of 'Apples and Pear as Vintage Fruit'. This is NOT an
original copy but rather a Kinko's sprial bound copy with a clear vinyl cover
and black back cover. The book details 56 cider apples, 29 perry pears,
137 'other' cider apple descriptons and 18 'local' perry pear descriptions.
I'm simply after postage for this to go to a good home. I was lucky enough
to find an original copy in a used book store when recently in England.
I figure it will cost about $5-8 to media mail this to someone in the states.
I can check on overseas postage if someone is interested.
Thanks
Chris Horn
Scappoose Oregon USA
'April hath put a spirit of youth in everything'
-William Shakespeare
------------------------------
Subject: Re. Pollination
From: EREC GRIM <erecgrim@msn.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:24:21 -0700
Andrew Leigh's question is a very interesting one. I doubt that one
can do more than generalize across wide geographic areas, but here are
my observations.
My 39-tree cider apple test orchard is located in Spokane, in eastern
Washington state (quite a ways from the state's main apple-growing regions,
and even farther from England!) I have what I believe to be two species
of ground-dwelling solitary bees. They are distinct in color, but similar
in size & habit. I also observe small bumblebees pollinating my fruit,
but I haven't seen where they nest. These outnumber the honeybees.
I believe these wild bees are more effective pollinators than honeybees.
They are out in cooler & wetter weather than the honeybees, and earlier
in the day.
I have been very careful to guard the health of my wild bees. Unfortunately
I have a terrible codling moth problem, and this year I intend to try
some more effective insecticides (that are approved for application to
organic crops). I plan to watch the wild bee population closely for damage.
(Codling moth sprays start some time after full bloom; I hope that will
minimize bee mortality.)
I have blackberries & raspberries close to the apple trees, and will
soon add some cherry & prune trees. The bees will probably welcome that.
Having a long season with flowering fruit is probably good for the bees
(but I don't know that for sure).
I wonder if interplanting other types of fruit, and maybe hedgerows,
would support wild bee populations in a commercial orchard.
Yours truly, E.Grim
Spokane, Wash.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1498, 27 April 2009
From: Tim Brod <allajar@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:40:53 -0600
To Tim Bray: RE Planting For a single variety apple I have never found a
better apple then the *Gravenstein*. It is a tart semi sweet apple that
typical is harvested early August. Its down side is it doesn't keep well
(although who cares if you are making cider), and it is an early spring
bloomer, which, depending on your winter/spring may be a factor. I do not
believe there is a better apple. It makes my favorite cider. But i am
very biased, have been growing these apples and producing cider for the last
30 years. Cheers. Tim Brod
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Pollination
From: "W. Douglas Hofius, AIA, LEED AP" <dhofius@hewittseattle.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:41:29 -0700
Andrew,
I am an amateur beekeeper and cidermaker, in NW Washington State. Apple
bloom in our area is just starting, but is usually too early for
over-wintered honey bees, whose population hasn't increased enough for
them to be of any use. In commercial orchards, professional pollinator
with hives on trucks follow the blooms north from California, and have
flying honeybees.
Typically native bumblebees and mason bees, (osmia genus) who are much
more efficient pollinators than honeybees, do the job here. For larger
orchards, native and backyard mason bee populations will not be
sufficient. There are many suppliers who sell mason bees in the states,
and there may be similar groups in the UK
http://www.insectpix.net/Solitary_Bee_%20Posts.htm
Doug Hofius
Subject: Pollination
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@HarpHill.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:45:05 +0100
Here in Southern England the apple trees are blooming and a fine sight
it is. Will it be followed by fruit though? We have heard a lot on both
sides of the pond about Colony Collapse Disorder in honey bees and no
doubt it is a genuine issue even if its cause is uncertain. But I rarely
see a honey bee on my trees in any case whereas I see many wild bees and
other flying insects crawling over the blossom. Are these not effective
pollinators?
My question is ... to what extent is the honey bee an important
pollinator for people with small orchards surrounded by other vegetation
types and habitats where wild insects live? Obviously with large
commercial orchards, where any habitat for free living insects is far
distant, introduced honey bee hives are important... but for the rest of
us, is it the case? What experience do others have?
Andrew Lea
www.cider.org.uk
HEWITT
W. Douglas Hofius, AIA, LEED AP
Associate
206.624.8154 phone
206.834.3842 direct
dhofius@hewittseattle.com
Hewitt Architects Inc., A Washington Business Corporation
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1498, 27 April 2009
From: Tim Brod <allajar@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 13:51:18 -0600
Response to Andrew Lea Pollination/Bees
Andrew as a Bee keeper and orchardist cider maker, I can not over stress
to importance of good pollination. Your question regarding bee pollination
is very difficult to answer not knowing your specific location. While it is
true, other insects can act and are pollinators, nothing is as productive as
the honey bee. One reason for this is honey bees are very discreet. That
is, they will stick with one type of flower at a time. This translates to a
single bee going from apple blossom to apple blossom, stacking the odds for
a good apple pollination. In your area, there may be other good
pollinators, but if your livelihood is dependant upon good pollination,
bring in some bees. Depending on the size of your orchard, i would imagine
there is a local bee keeper who would be happy to bring in some hives for a
few weeks in exchange for apples!! Hope this helps, cheers Tim Brod
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1498, 27 April 2009
From: "Ed Vendely" <ed@sweetbettybees.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:59:02 -0400
In Cider Digest # 1498, Andrew Lea wrote:
Subject: Pollination
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@HarpHill.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 11:45:05 +0100
Here in Southern England the apple trees are blooming and a fine sight
it is. Will it be followed by fruit though? We have heard a lot on both
sides of the pond about Colony Collapse Disorder in honey bees and no
doubt it is a genuine issue even if its cause is uncertain. But I rarely
see a honey bee on my trees in any case whereas I see many wild bees and
other flying insects crawling over the blossom. Are these not effective
pollinators?
My question is ... to what extent is the honey bee an important
pollinator for people with small orchards surrounded by other vegetation
types and habitats where wild insects live? Obviously with large
commercial orchards, where any habitat for free living insects is far
distant, introduced honey bee hives are important... but for the rest of
us, is it the case? What experience do others have?
Andrew Lea
www.cider.org.uk
Andrew,
Having experience with 35 honey bee hives, and helping a commercial
organic orchardist as well as an organic vegetable/small fruit farm with
pollination, my wife and I can attest that we desperately need the honey
bee for efficient pollination and a good apple crop (as well as other
agricultural crops). Other wild pollinators are just not as efficient;
they don't visit the flowers often enough to do the job although they are
certainly better than nothing! Bumble Bees and other native bees/insects
are just not available in sufficient populations to adequately pollinate. You
will have fruit without the Honey Bee, but nowhere near the fruit that you'll
have with the honey bee colony presence. Fruit quality also will be better
with honey bees, simply because they are more efficient as pollinators.
Find yourself a beekeeper friend to locate a hive in your orchard, or
better yet, consider getting a few hives yourself and help the plight
of the honeybee! As a side note, many are of the opinion that CCD is a
result of a combination of stressed bees, undernourished bees and the new
neocide-type pesticides being infused in seeds so that when the plant grows,
the pesticide is in the tissue and flower/nectar (thanks to companies like
Monsanto and Bayer). Don't feed bees anything but their own pollen and
honey. Don't manage your hives with chemicals/pesticides in or around the
hive, and don't move them around (don't stress them) - My wife and I have
not had the CCD problems since we treat the bees right!
- -Ed in Asheville, North Carolina
www.sweetbettybees.com
------------------------------
Subject: British cider in the US
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:38:58 -0600
I know it's somewhat perverse to take cider, which ought to be one of those
"drink local" beverages, and suggest that people buy it from a quarter of
the way around the world. But anyway I think it's important for US cider
aficionados to get a chance to try good British cider.
There's an importer (Shelton Bros) apparently trying to build up a
portfolio of good ciders in their offerings. They've brought in products
from a couple good UK producers; if you're in the US you've got a fighting
chance of finding these in your area if you bug your local wine merchant.
Oliver's (from Herefordshire) has at least two excellent products now in
the US--a "Herefordshire Dry" cider and perry. These are really spot-on
for the character of true, full-juice, well-made British styles--dry,
still, wonderfully complex.
Henney's (also Herefordshire) has recently arrived. There's a "Frome
Valley" (medium sweet, about 3% RS), and "Vintage 2007" (off-dry, about 1%
RS). These aren't as interesting as the Oliver's, but they're good, and
good examples of type. I don't know how to express that without making
it sound like the Henney's are boring (which they're not) or making the
Oliver's sound quirky (which they definitely are not!). It's just that
the Oliver's has more going for it.
Shelton is also carrying some of the Farnum Hill line (from NH - cider-
maker Steve Wood occasionally posts here) and AEppeltreow (from WI--
cidermaker Charles McGonegal posts here too), both well worth trying.
Note that Shelton Bros is an -importer-. Hang on if you're not familiar
with the bizarre US laws: An importer has the same status as a producer
(like a winery), so Shelton must sell to a -distributor- in your region,
who then will sell to your local -retailer-. Or, working back through
the chain the other direction, you'll have to ask your retailer to find
out which of their distributors can deal with Shelton. But, really, it
IS worth the hassle, esp. if you can try some of the Oliver's.
Also from Britain, Aspall's (from Suffolk) has been available in some
parts of the country for several years, and they're worth a try.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Pollination/pollinators
From: Bill <squeeze@mars.ark.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 06:38:35 -0700
Like Andrew, I too [Vancouver Island] see few domestic honeybees.
Wild insects are important pollinators - as for "effective", not so
much, except for one particular type in N America, which is the Orchard
Mason bee [see Wikipedia "Megachilidae"], cultivated all over the Island
here as replacement/supplement for honeybees and available commercially.
Many other varities of wild bees exist, but few concentrate on fruit
bloom for their primaty wage the way Apis and Osmia do, so provide
erratic pollination at best - for those with ample "natural" habitat
nearby, it's worth noting that domestic honeybees are pretty commonly
found in the wild as a result of escaped "swarms" from small scale hobby
beekeeping, and if they find a particularly good nesting location may
persist in an area for years, throwing swarms of their own regularly,
and they may develop an appearance differing from the distinctive
European honey bee
Bill <http://mars.ark.com/~squeeze/>
------------------------------
Subject: Re: What would you plant this spring
From: Dan Spoelstra <dspoelstra@opma.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 13:01:28 -0400
I love the Golden Russet and the Hudson Golden Gem. Both do very well
in Michigan.
Other favorites are King David, spicy, almost taste fermented
straight off the tree. Another is Hidden Rose. Pink fleshed and very
aromatic. Kinda like grandma's cheap perfume, but a nice addition if
used in small amounts. It can be overpowering.
dan
Kent City Michigan
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1498, 27 April 2009
From: jar18 <jar18@lamar.colostate.edu>
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 12:29:33 -0600
Ray,
Thanks for the info. As soon as I pressed "send" I went to the Mangers
website to read the fine print only to find that it was also made by
Bulmers. It tasted better than half of what I make in a good year from
scrounged, gleaned fruit, mostly old Duchess and Haralson with various
crabs thrown in. I have been told that I am a classless cretin and have
often been found drinking things I shouldn't. I should have stuck with
beers in Belgium. Didn't have time to scout a "cider trail" out.
Again,
Thanks.
John
> Subject: Cider Digest #1497
> From: "Ray Blockley" <rayblockley@ntlworld.com>
> Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2009 18:21:59 +0100
>
> In Digest #1497, John wrote:
> "While on a recent trip to Belgium, I had a Magners Irish Cider along with
> some nice Normandy ciders. Strange to be asking for ciders in the heart of
> beer country, I know. Didn't want to buy the Strongbow Gold, but a
> storekeeper pulled this out so I bought some.
>
> Any opinions on this cider, how it's made, what they use, taste, etc?"
>
> Hi John,
> Magners "Irish" cider has had a big influence on cider-buying here in the
> UK, mainly due to the massive (and costly) advertising that has accompanied
> it. It became very fashionable to drink it and the spin-off is a much
> higher presence of cider in the UK market. However, it is not a "real"
> cider by UK definitions, nor is it made 100% from "Irish" apples as much
> of the cider apple fruit has apparently been sourced in the south-west of
> England. However, Magners have planted more orchards in Ireland, some of
> which I believe are true cider apples, although much of the fruit used in
> these "Irish" ciders are culinary varieties, rather than the traditional
> bittersweets and bittersharps more commonly used in the UK.
>
> Magners has a curious colour, often described as "pink" which is most
> probably not natural! It is carbonated artificially and sweetened quite
> heavily, probably to mask the true nature of the fruit used. It would be
> interesting to hear exactly what is given as ingredients on the labels
> of export bottles, as labelling of alcoholic drinks is not compulsory
> or even recommended here in the UK. I personally dislike it, but maybe
> that's because I'm used to drinking pure juice ciders - from a range of
> apple types - rather than something which probably owes more to the skill
> of a laboratory technician than a skilled artisan cider-maker.
>
> Magners is often classed as an "industrial cider" here in the UK due
> to the way it is mass-manufactured. A true Normandy cider will be made
> from little more than pure apple juice, but Magners cider most probably
> contains water, sugar, various cereal-based syrups, and colouring agents,
> as well as a probably-quite-low percentage of apple juice: I would guess
> much less than 50% on a good day, more likely around 35%?
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> Ray
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Pollination
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:41:27 -0600
Andrew wondered about honeybees and CCD, but noted:
>...But I rarely
> see a honey bee on my trees in any case whereas I see many wild bees and
> other flying insects crawling over the blossom. Are these not effective
> pollinators?
Yes, the other bees at least are good pollinators. The orchard mason bee
is particularly effective; bumblebees are OK. Honeybees are actually not
all that good -per- -insect-. It's just that the size of a colony, many
tens of thousands, makes them effective en masse.
> My question is ... to what extent is the honey bee an important
> pollinator for people with small orchards surrounded by other vegetation
> types and habitats where wild insects live?
Andrew, you've managed to get good pollination in the past (right? you've
made a fair bit of cider from your little orchard!), so if you're not
getting it from honeybees you must have adequate other pollinators. The
area around you has a lot of vegetation, and diverse, so you should be
OK. But for anyone else's small orchard, they'd want to see what mix
of pollinating insects they have, by observation.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Pollination
From: Donald Davenport <djdavenport@earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 11:22:36 -0600
Andrew--
In my orchard, here in the high, western US desert, my apples and
other fruit depend 100% on native bees. I've probably only seen a
dozen or so "domesticated" honey bees in the 8 years I've been
messing with apples (it's unusual enough that I tend to remember when
it happens). This morning, for example, there were squadrons of
bumblebees (mostly bombus huntii) working the trees, which are now in
full bloom. They are impressive (and loud). Like you, we also have
a number of smaller bees, solitary bees, so-called "sweat" bees
(halitidae), a smattering of mason orchard bees and and even a
variety of wasps that go flower to flower. While not all of these
are equally effective at pollenating, I'm sure, since the ones with
pollen "packs" or furry bellies tend to actually convey more pollen.
Nevertheless, between all of them, they seem to get the job done
nicely. Generally adequate fruit sets, weather permitting, of course.
But, as you point out, I'm not a commercial grower. I have about a
dozen semi-dwarf trees on a quarter acre. I'm quite sure they could
not keep up with anything like a dense planting of full-sized trees
on a larger parcel.
Don Davenport
Santa Fe, NM
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1499
*************************
