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Cider Digest #1513
Subject: Cider Digest #1513, 20 June 2009
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1513 20 June 2009
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Important notes about how the Cider Digest operates (Cider Digest Admin)
Re: Early racking (Tim Bray)
Re: Cider Digest #1512, 17 June 2009 (Duncan Galletly)
Re: Cider Digest #1512, 17 June 2009 (Alan Yelvington)
Subject: Used Equipment Sources buy/sell/trade??? ("Bob Capshew")
Re: repelling deer (Dick Dunn)
Re: Early Racking ("Howard, John")
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Important notes about how the Cider Digest operates
From: cider-request@talisman.com (Cider Digest Admin)
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:41:40 -0600 (MDT)
We have a fair number of new subscribers lately, so I'd like to re-play
some important info about the Cider Digest. I know this is long, but
please skim through at least the headings even if you're a long-time
subscriber.
The Digest is not moderated.
That is why I represent myself as "janitor", not "moderator".
I clean out spam, bounced mail, etc. I do as little as possible
about content. Blatant advertising is prohibited (it's just
'targeted spam' after all) but there are occasional quasi-commercial
items because they help people find products, fruit, equipment, etc.
BUT I don't exercise editorial control!
Once in a while I'll notice something really wrong in an upcoming
article, so I'll contact the author rather than wait a cycle for a
correction (plus having bad info in the archives). I make no
apologies for this sort of "editing", and the authors have always
appreciated the chance to correct and not embarrass themselves.
HOWEVER! I don't read every article in detail, so there may well be
errors, unseemly harshness, an errant ad, etc.
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There is a reminder of these addresses at the top of each Digest.
The person who maintains the Digest is also an individual contributor.
But you can tell the difference! I (Dick Dunn) am currently the
"janitor"--the person who maintains the Digest. I clean out spam,
handle subscriptions, and publish the Digest as needed. In that
role, and on the rare occasions when I have to make decisions about
content, any articles will come from "cider-request@talisman.com".
Now and then I'll toss an interpretation or explanation into the
middle of an article, in which case I will [bracket] it and sign
it "janitor" or something similar (e.g., janitron).
But as an individual, I'm a cidermaker and therefore an active
participant in the Digest. In my personal role, my mail will come
from rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn). Please don't send Digest
articles or admin questions to my personal mail.
In fairness to the Digest, I try very hard to keep these roles clear.
In fairness to me, I ask that you not ascribe my occasionally-harsh
personal writings to "the digest janitor".
(And PLEASE, it is NOT "Dick Dunn's Cider Digest". It's yours!)
OK, nuffa that; back to cider and thanks,
Cider Digest cider-request@talisman.com
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor Boulder County, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Early racking
From: Tim Bray <tbray@wildblue.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:04:55 -0700
Duncan, I've experienced the same effect sometimes. In a couple of
cases I did rack off the sediment and obtained a slower fermentation and
a smoother, better cider. I don't know if this is related to nitrogen
removal or some other effect - I have noticed that racking off whenever
significant sediment appears tends to slow down all my fermentations.
It may be that the sediment is scavenging yeast out of suspension, or it
may be removing nutrients - all I know is, my experience indicates
racking off the sediment is beneficial to the cidermaking. A couple of
times I have even ended up with a stable off-dry cider (i.e. some
residual sweetness).
My only problem is getting this to happen consistently. I can't figure
out if it's related to sulphite concentration, juice chemistry,
temperature, or some combination. Juice from the same varieties will do
this one year and not the next. One year it happened with my Red-Vein
Crab juice, leaving it a brilliant clear ruby-red; hasn't happened since.
I can't see how early racking would entail much risk of contamination;
unless you're starting with pasteurized juice, it's already
"contaminated" with plenty of mold spores and bacteria (they were on the
apple skins). Just add a small amount of sulphite into the top of the
fermentation vessel after racking, to scavenge oxygen and suppress mold.
Cheers,
Tim in Albion, CA
> I think I am following a reasonably standard sequence of pressing, and
> then adding an appropriate dose of sulphite, placing the airlock,
> cooling (10-15 C), and waiting for a natural fermentation to take
> place. Occasionally with certain apples however, over the next few
> days the juice will clear quite markedly, before fermentation starts,
> leaving a heavy deposit on the bottom of the fermentation vessel.
> There is no chapeau brun as might be expected with a natural keeving
> and the clarity of the juice is perhaps not as bright as a keeved
> cider. My question however is to whether there is value, if this
> happens, to rack the clear juice off the sediment before fermentation
> starts as one would do with a keeved cider? Would the resulting juice
> have a lower nitrogen content similar to a naturally keeved juice, or
> is the nitrogen loss with keeving primarily from removal of the
> floating pectate gel. My reticence to do this early racking is to
> avoid further contamination of the juice before fermentation starts.
>
> Thanks
> Duncan
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1512, 17 June 2009
From: Duncan Galletly <duncan.galletly@otago.ac.nz>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:31:44 +1200
Re: Early racking
Thank you Andrew and Dick for your helpful comments on the early
racking of a juice that had cleared prior to the onset of fermentation.
I've noted the rapid clearing for the second year running with a mix
of 40% culinary apples mixed with 60% crabs. The mix includes a high
proportion of Wright's Scarlet, a bright red crab with quite marked
red staining through the apple. I noticed that the juice from the
Wrights was a beautiful deep pink (no maceration before pressing) and
last year this persisted reasonably well through the fermentation.
This lead me to wonder whether I could get a true pink cider that is
drinkable by blending this with a pale cider, less acid and low in
tannin. Anyway, I racked the clear pink juice from the deposit and
because I was paranoid about contamination I gave in and added a
little exogenous yeast to hurry it along (despite its pH being a safe
3.3 .. yes I know that was dumb). Just as you say Dick the initial
fermentation seems to be much less messy than usual. I've put some to
ferment at at 4 degrees C and the rest between 10-15 C. Unfortunately
Ive now run out of wrights for the year so further experimentation
will need to wait till next year but certainly looking at the nitrogen
loss would be interesting, and I'll plan to do this Andrew.
One thing I did notice during the racking was that there was a
brilliantly clear, well demarcated, layer of juice (2cm) between the
deposit and the more hazy juice above it , I wonder if this was in
fact the beginning of a natural keeve that just needed a little CO2 to
lift the upper layer?. Until next year..... Thanks again... this is a
great site.
Associate Professor Duncan Galletly
Head of Department
Department of Surgery and Anaesthesia
University of Otago: Wellington
PO Box 7343 Wellington South
duncan.galletly@otago.ac.nz
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1512, 17 June 2009
From: Alan Yelvington <alany@semparpac.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 20:43:02 -0400
I think it's very appropriate to post cider-related items for sale on
the digest. This stuff is so very difficult to find, and our group is
probably one of the largest interested parties around.
Al Yelvington
------------------------------
Subject: Subject: Used Equipment Sources buy/sell/trade???
From: "Bob Capshew" <rcapshew@insightbb.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 21:56:30 -0400
Peter,
There is a U.S.-based website for used cider equipment
at http://www.cidermillsupplies.com/used/. The website
is hosted by Day Equipment Company (Goshen, IN)
that sells cider making supplies. Great people to find
supplies and parts especially if you have one of their
presses like the 17" one that I have.
Bob Capshew
S. Indiana
------------------------------
Subject: Re: repelling deer
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:05:11 -0600
Chris Horn wrote:
> I tried the garlic based repellants with no luck. I figured I would have
> to fence.
Chris, I had used a garlic (or maybe garlic/capsaicin) repellent in the
distant past and had limited success.
The stuff I wrote about has "putrescent egg solids" and I think that is
the key ingredient.
I hope I don't have to go the deer-fence route! Because our orchard is
an awkward wrap-around shape, we'd end up with the better part of a mile
of fence, for about an acre of trees. Bleagh. Plus it would make the
house feel like it was in a DMZ.
We don't even normally -have- deer problems! But there's this one, I
think a young buck looking for territory...and it's been too wet for us
to cut hay so he's got a nice secure place to hang out in the hayfield.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Early Racking
From: "Howard, John" <jhoward@beckerfrondorf.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:04:27 -0400
ANDREW WROTE:
"Here's a related side thought for chemists / biochemists / process
engineers. Somebody once suggested to me that instead of going through
all the keeving mess and the chapeau nonsense, the addition of a weak
cation exchange resin to the juice would do just what keeving does, by
adsorbing positively charged nutrients. Then, after a few days, strain
it out and let the low-nutrient fermentation proceed! The resin could
easily be cleaned and regenerated for next year. Anyone able to try
this?"
Andrew there was some discussion last August about fining with bentonite
and you mentioned that it is negatively charged, albeit weakly compared
to a resin approach. A few years ago I experimented with multiple
rackings (six all togather I think) to slow/stop fermentation for a
slight residual sugar cider. I added some bentonite a day or two
before each racking to try and compact the lees and get a cleaner
transfer. The experiment was pretty successful. I wish I still had
some of that cider. Perhaps the bentonite played a small role in the
success!
John Howard
Philadlephia PA, USA
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End of Cider Digest #1513
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