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Cider Digest #1505
Subject: Cider Digest #1505, 23 May 2009
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1505 23 May 2009
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Grafting questions (Scott Smith)
Cider Orchards in France (Pete Tallman)
Cider within reach of Paris (Warwick Billings)
varying experience with cider-apple varieties (Andrew Lea)
Grafting questions - Tim and Claude (David Pickering)
Aging (Jason MacArthur)
French Cider Orchards (chris horn)
Re: Grafting questions (Claude Jolicoeur)
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Subject: Re: Grafting questions
From: Scott Smith <scott@cs.jhu.edu>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 08:08:45 -0400
> Claude:
>> I really don't see why it wouldn't work. I have in the same tree up
>> to 20
>> varieties, some early blomers, some late bloomers, and they simply
>> bloom
>> when their time comes.
>
Tim:
> Ah, but are those grafted onto another varietal, or are they all on a
> rootstock? What I'm concerned about is an early-blooming graft trying
> to open up before the late-breaking "interstem" of Sweet Coppin (for
> example) is providing sap flow. SC is still mostly dormant right now,
> whereas KD is mostly finished blooming. If the KD graft is trying to
> grow, will that trigger sap flow in the SC branch wood, even if the SC
> is still dormant?
I have some early apples grafted to some super-lates and the only
problem I have noticed is the shock in the spring of looking at a tree
that is naked everywhere except on the added graft which is growing
like gangbusters. My latest apple is probably Bedan and one of them
has a Pigeonnet Rouge grafted to it. The Bedan is only starting to
bloom now, and the Pigeonnet Rouge is well past petal fall (or would
be - its alternate bearing this year). This graft is not on the
rootstock, it is on Bedan wood. This makes me conclude that shoots
"pull" nutrients from the base, not the other way around, and it also
fits with the chilling studies that show it is the shoots that are
controlling when to come out of dormancy. I was thinking this one
shoot might "wake up" the rest of the tree earlier but it is not --
the Bedan with the graft is at the same point as my other Bedans
without grafts on them.
Scott
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Orchards in France
From: Pete Tallman <pete_tallman@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 07:17:20 -0600
I recommend a visit to the Potager du Roi (King's Kitchen Garden), which
is part of the Ecole Paysage (agricultural school) around the corner from
the Palace of Versailles. It's an easy suburban train ride from Paris and
then an easy walk from the train station. See http://www.potager-du-roi.fr/
. There is a nominal admission charge. (I expect that in its heyday there
was cider and perry happening there, so this is mildly still on topic.) This
is a large area of old and beauifully espallier-trained apples and pears
in a super-formal garden setting. I hit this in late April some years back
at full bloom time, which was magical.
Also, right within Paris, there is a small area of espallier-trained apples
in a corner of the Luxembourg Gardens that I enjoyed. No admission charge
for walking by. (See http://www.parisdigest.com/takingarest/jardindu.htm
.) Fuzzy recollection is that it was in the Southeast corner of the park,
but please don't hold me to that.
Pete Tallman
Longmont, CO zone 5 or so
------------------------------
Subject: Cider within reach of Paris
From: Warwick Billings <tokolosh@penalvagold.net>
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 07:43:47 +0930
Cider within reach of Paris
check out http://www.ukcider.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Cidernaut_guide_to_France
The small region of Cidre de Pays de Othe is the secret cider region
of France, I have sampled but not completed their cider route and met
several delightful producers. The Frottiers who are linked on this
page where charming if a little tourism based, but were able to send
me to some other very interesting producers. Their daughter was home
and she is an English teacher. This region is a bit over an hour from
Paris.
Good luck.
Warwick
------------------------------
Subject: varying experience with cider-apple varieties
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@HarpHill.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 12:20:35 +0100
Dick wrote:
>
> One real difference from UK info, for us anyway, is maturity date. For
> example, Kingston Black is supposed to be a late variety, harvest in
> November or so. We generally harvest in early-mid September.
........
>
> It makes the question of "what should I plant?" very difficult to give
> good answers in such a large area as this digest covers.
Not only maturity date varies with geography but so also does 'vintage
quality'. For instance, Claude's Cortland cider from Quebec is excellent
(not just his own opinion - I have also tasted it!). But others further
south have found Cortland cider to be bland and uninteresting AFAIR.
Some years ago we had a contributor to this Digest who grew Kingston
Black in the Napa Valley, CA. The cider he made from it was quite unlike
any KB I ever tasted from the UK. High alcohol, very low acid, low
tannin and no characteristic aroma. Drinkable certainly, but not
recognisable in its origins.
The UK info is from a terrifically limited area of the West Midlands and
South West England only - by no means the whole country. Even so,
behaviour north and south of the River Severn / Bristol Channel differs
markedly (though the climate doesn't). Most likely this is an effect of
soil type / 'terroir'. I grow the 'vintage' UK varieties just 100 miles
or so east of their traditional areas, and they make a much lighter and
less tannic style of cider for me on chalky clay than on the loams where
they originate.
Those who study winemaking across the world will know the same is true
for grapes. For instance, where else than in Alsace does Gewurtzraminer
(though often grown elsewhere) truly develop its character? Yet
Zinfandel, of no particular account in its Balkan homeland, delivers to
perfection in California.
So I endorse Dick's caution. Use the 'received wisdom' as a guide, for
sure, but be prepared to experiment much more widely!
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford, UK
www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Grafting questions - Tim and Claude
From: David Pickering <davidp@cideroz.com>
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 22:01:14 +1000
It becomes an interesting concept if you pursue Tim's line of thought.I'm
not a plant physiologist and I'd never even wondered about the possibility
that the rootstock influenced flowering date. You accept that the rootstock
is the primary determinant of a scion variety's tree size but I for one
hadn't considered other influences.
If we have a physiologist out there, or a good literature searcher, we may
find either:
that the scion flowering is independent of interstems and/or rootstocks or
that there is an influence
But then you have to ask what determines the response of the rootstock or
interstem. Normally they have no twigs or leaf buds or floral buds, so what
is the environmental trigger mechanism to get them working and what is it
acting on?
If Tim is right and the lower structure influences flowering of the scion
then perhaps we might be able to work towards "improving" the blossoming of
the late flowering cultivars such as Stoke Red.
Does anybody have similar aged trees of a given scion variety some on dwarf
and others on semi-dwarf or larger? But then the genetics of size
determination might not have a direct relationship on things such as
flowering so this could be inconclusive anyway!
- --
David Pickering
"Linden Lea" Huntley Road, ORANGE NSW 2800 Australia
------------------------------
Subject: Aging
From: Jason MacArthur <rotread@localnet.com>
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 16:58:30 -0400
I am sure the chemistry of this with wine is well established, but
how does cider age differently in different containers? Do ciders
exhibit different characteristics when matured in bottle versus in an
oak barrel versus a big stainless steel tank? I routinely bottle my
ciders when they are too young for drinking, usually in March and
April, and it can take several months to a year after bottling for
these ciders to come into their own. This year we are holding off on
bottling a 30 gallon SS barrel of Kingston Black to see if the cider
evolved differently. What experiences have others had with these
dilemmas?
P.S- The reason we bottle in March is there is nothing else to do then!
Jason MacArthur
------------------------------
Subject: French Cider Orchards
From: chris horn <agent_strangelove@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:42:59 -0700
There is a good Route du Cidre in Pays d'othe France. It's about 2 hours
drive southeast of Paris. My GF and I were out there in the summer of 2008
and had a wonderful time. I think I still have the flier we got from the
local tourist office (in Sens ?) and I will try to find that and scan it in.
Drop me a note off list for that.
But beware this is not nearly as tourist developed as Normandy. None of
the farmers we met that day spoke a lick of English. Signage along
the route could also be sparce. The farmers were friendly and tried
their best to understand my old (15+ years) high school French. But the
tastings was wonderful. The best stuff was not a commerical operation
but a simple sign in a small village (of about 200 people) that was for
the local cider maker. We were charged 3 euros a 750ml bottle for stuff
that had been keeved better than any other I have ever had... We brought
back about 20 bottles of cider to the states from that day.
Chris Horn
Scappoose Oregon USA
'But what makes season fruit so scrumptious is that it is part of a rhythm,
a rhythm that allows you access to it only once a year. And, let's face
it, it's the 11 months of not having fresh strawberries that make fresh
strawberries so inviting.'
-Bob Welch
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Grafting questions
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 23:03:12 -0400
In Cider Digest #1504, 19 May 2009
>Subject: Re: Grafting questions
>From: Tim Bray <tbray@wildblue.net>
Tim wrote:
>Well, maybe I better just go try it, then. KD is blooming, SC hasn't
>even reached pink-tip yet. I suspect the KD grafts will just die, but
>there's one way to find out. One variety or another is in bloom here
>from late March through June...
Tim, your climate and mine are so different that I don't think my
experience here in Quebec could be of any use to you...
Here in late March I do downhill skiing in a station just 10 minutes away
and there is usually more that 3 feet of snow in the orchard - apple bloom
is simply out of the question...
What amazes me however is that there are still some apple varieties
blooming for you in June. Here, by the time all the snow melts, we are at
the end of April and all the varieties rush to get moving. Currently, most
apples are now at pre-pink here and I expect full bloom of most varieties
in about 10 to 15 days. There is about only 2 weeks span between bloom time
of the earliest varieties and the latest ones. And you are talking of a
span of over 2 months in your location!
So, you will have to try your grafting experience and learn the hard way...
I still think it should work fine but the only way to find out for sure is
to try it.
Claude
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End of Cider Digest #1505
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