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Cider Digest #1524
Subject: Cider Digest #1524, 9 August 2009
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1524 9 August 2009
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Lactose fermentation (Andrew Lea)
Origin of cider apples (Andrew Lea)
US version of the Shark? ("Kevin Luke")
lactose (Dick Dunn)
crabapples (Dick Dunn)
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Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
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Subject: Lactose fermentation
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@HarpHill.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 13:53:04 +0100
Mike Brady wrote:
> I was once told
> that apple yeasts were decidedly against converting lactose sugar.
> Does anyone know the chemistry on this, or have any experience?
It is true that normal Saccharomyces fermenting yeasts will not touch
lactose because they cannot split it into its components (glucose and
galactose). You need a special yeast to convert it to alcohol (eg
Kluveromyces spp) which is the basis of the Irish whey spirit industry.
I believe this is also done in New Zealand now.
Lactose is not ideal as a cider sweetener. You need a lot of it, it has
an odd flavour profile and it is still subject to attack by lactic acid
bacteria. Sadly, if it were any good it would be being used!
Andrew
www.cider.org.uk
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Subject: Origin of cider apples
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@HarpHill.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 14:07:01 +0100
Mike Brady wrote:
>
> I believe many of our
> bitter sharps and bitter sweets are derived from crabs
This is often contended but on what sort of evidence I do not know. But
very soon this question will be answered for good and all. All the
apples (including cider) in the UK's Brogdale Fruit Collection are being
genetically profiled at the moment by the East Malling Research Station
on a DEFRA contract which is due to report next year as I understand.
Then we shall indeed know whether European cider apples are from Malus
domestica (which is now believed to have originated from M sieversii in
Kazakhstan), or have any genetic material from Malus sylvestris the
Western European native crab apple. [There are I believe many more
native North American crabs (Malus spp non domestica) than we have in
Europe].
Andrew Lea
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Subject: US version of the Shark?
From: "Kevin Luke" <kluke@amerytel.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2009 08:13:10 -0500
Does anyone know if the Shark scratter (or equivalent) is available in
the US? I believe it is being imported into England, but I haven't heard
of anyone in the US using one. Does anyone have one? If so, how well
do they work, and do they hold up well? I'm curious if it would be cost
prohibitive to ship here. Maybe if we can get enough people interested,
we can work a group rate somehow. Does anyone have a contact? I seem to
remember the name Vicky from some old posts.
Thanks,
Kevin
------------------------------
Subject: lactose
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 09:21:57 -0600
Charles Brady <hollinshedbrady@hotmail.com> wrote:
> ...I was once told
> that apple yeasts were decidedly against converting lactose sugar...
Not merely "apple yeasts" per se (not sure what that would mean anyway),
but normal yeasts for fermentation won't ferment lactose, true.
>...At the
> time lactose was available at very low cost from the local milk factory,
> and I did my own musing as to whether this could be a means of producing
> a "naturally " sweet cider without all the trouble of kieving or risk of
> secondary fermentation.
Two problems--first, lactose isn't very sweet. Second, it gives a funny
mouth-feel. I've experimented with it in beer. Perhaps you've heard of
"milk stout", which is a stout with lactose added for body and a touch of
sweetness? That works, but lactose -doesn't- work well even for lighter
beers. I admit I haven't tried it in cider, but I can imagine what it
would do to the "body", nothing good.
Still, the main obstacle to what you're suggesting is that lactose just
has very little sweet taste to it, so it takes a large amount to get
perceived sweetness. (And then you're up against the odd mouth-feel.)
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: crabapples
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 12:58:09 -0600
Mike Brady (of Devon) wrote:
> Regarding Patrick Philbin's quest for Cider Apples:
>
> I wonder if you grow crab apples in the U.S....
We do, but the term here is confused, or perhaps you'd just say different,
from what you're likely thinking. One use of "crab apples" in the US,
probably the more common, is for cultivated, ornamental varieties. Most
of them produce either no fruit at all, or fruit which is so small as
to be impractical to process. (Why anybody would plant a tree which
produces useless fruit that makes a big mess is beyond me, but I guess
I think like an engineer.:) Of those ornamental crabs which produce
edible, useful fruit, some may supply useful tannins; others not. But
even then, they're likely to be so sharp (acidic) that you'll have
difficulty using enough of them for tannin before you throw the acid
balance off.
The less common use of "crab apple" over here is for wildings--apples
grown from discarded seeds. Searching these out may very well turn up
some tannic apples that aren't too sharp, and are large enough to mill
and press reasonably. Then, yes--if you're in an area where apples
grow well, it's worth hunting around for wild trees, asking permission
of the landowner, and trying them in a cider.
[Re the terminology problem: I know some folks try to distinguish
"crabapple" vs "crab apple" or even "apple crab", but there's no
understanding of a distinction that's well enough known to help.]
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1524
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