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Cider Digest #1516
Subject: Cider Digest #1516, 30 June 2009
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1516 30 June 2009
Cider and Perry Discussion Forum
Contents:
Finding closure (Frank Stevens)
Rotten egg smell in recently bottled cider (Andrew Lea)
Non-keeve clarification (Andrew Lea)
A trip to Australia (Dan Young)
The Cider Workshop - beware of cheap imitations! (Cider Digest)
NOTE: Digest appears whenever there is enough material to send one.
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider#Archives
Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn
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Subject: Finding closure
From: Frank Stevens <moose49017@comcast.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 17:02:52 +0000 (UTC)
Thought I would just throw this out there.
I would like to here about your preferred way to put up your ciders,
cyser's etc.
Both short term and long term. Utility and for flair.
Crown caps, cork, synthetic, cork and wire, cap and wire, poly-seal, wax
dipping...there seems to be a lot of different ways and combinations used
when other beverages are put away to slumber.
Just wondering how digest readers approach it. Maybe a good time to talk
bottles and pressure's too.
Frank Stevens
Battle Creek, MI
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Subject: Rotten egg smell in recently bottled cider
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@HarpHill.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 18:24:06 +0100
John Simmons wrote:
> So, the question... does anyone have any experience that indicates the
> possibility that something like this needs to just age out??
Often this sort of 'bottle stink' will age out. Many ciders show it
initially, especially after handling. But hydrogen sulphide can also be
removed by copper treatment. See extract from my book below. I would
suggest you hedge your bets by leaving some to age out and treating some
with copper.
>I found a
> reference that indicates that if you catch this problem in the carboy, you
> can add sugar and yeast nutrient, and let the renewed fermentation drive the
> smells off..
Not a good idea. The sulphidic smell is due to yeast action and you may
just repeat the problem. The extra sugar will turn your cider into a
higher strength apple wine, which you may not want. Having said that,
yeast nutrient added before fermentation may help to avoid such taints,
especially if a wine yeast was used.
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford, UK
www.cider.org.uk
- ----------------------------
If your cider smells of rotten eggs, drains or is generally "unclean"
then it may have a sulphur taint. Unfortunately most volatile sulphur
compounds in fermented beverages are odour-active at very low levels,
even parts per trillion in some cases, so these can be very noticeable
even when present in minute amounts. Many ciders do smell slightly
sulphurous when in the course of active fermentation but this usually
disappears quickly at the end of fermentation. If it does not, excess
hydrogen sulphide or a related compound may be the cause. This can be
tested by taking a small sample of the offending cider in a glass and
dropping a copper penny or a piece of copper wire into the sample. After
10 minutes or so, its aroma should be assessed against an untreated
control glass. If the offending aroma has disappeared or is reduced, it
is possible to treat the bulk cider by the addition of copper (cupric)
sulphate. This is a permitted practice for winemaking in the EU but only
very small amounts of copper are used.
The addition required is one part per million which is an extremely
small amount to measure. The best way to do this is by "serial
dilution". For instance a 1% solution can be made up by dissolving 5 g
of copper sulphate (a flat level plastic teaspoon) in 500 ml of water. 5
ml of this solution (a level plastic teaspoon) can then be dispensed
into 50 litres of cider to give the required level. Wait a day to see
how well it has worked; one further teaspoon may be added if required.
The copper combines with the hydrogen sulphide to form cupric sulphide
which is insoluble. The chemistry of sulphur in wines and cider is
exceedingly complex and if disulphide compounds have been formed after
some time in storage it may be necessary to "reduce" them before copper
treatment by the prior use of ascorbic acid (Vitamin C). A professional
winemaking textbook should be consulted for further details. It has been
claimed that sulphur taints were not so much of a problem in previous
eras when brass or bronze fittings were common on tanks and pipework,
since the transient contact with the metal acted to remove them. The
cause of such flavours is generally yeast related ? in some cases added
nutrients in future batches will prevent the problem.
- --------------------------------
------------------------------
Subject: Non-keeve clarification
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@HarpHill.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 18:50:12 +0100
Charles McGonegal wrote:
> [Red fleshed cultivars] Someone with a more subtle grasp of the chemistry
> may correct me, but I don't think it's the anthocyanins doing the
> clarifying trick.
I agree. All my experience of anthocyanin chemistry tells me this is
likely a 'red herring' (excuse pun!). Certainly sulphite can be used to
extract them - the sulphite forms a more soluble anthocyanin sulphonate
which can then be liberated by strong acid or may become displaced by
acetaldehyde generated during fermention. This is a massively complex
area of wine /juice chemistry on which many PhD's have been written and
not one for this Digest. The amounts of pigment involved are quite small
(ppm only) - just they are visually noticeable, especially at low pH
where they are more coloured. I don't think anthocyanins are primary
players in such clarification - more likely just passengers.
> But I suspect this clearing is pectin related.
>
I think so too. 'Dropping bright' before fermentation is a traditional
observation for many cider juices (but not pears which generally contain
too little pectin), especially after maceration (pulp storage before
pressing). It also happens in traditional processing of some citrus
juices eg lime. The primary mechanism is the action of native pectin
methyl esterase in the fruit on its own pectin. This leaves a negatively
charged pectate which may complex with other positively charged stuff
(eg trace protein and even anthocyanins if they happen to be present) to
form a sediment. If there is enough calcium and some incipient yeast
action, a calcium pectate gel forms which is buoyed up by the gas to
form the 'chapeau brun' and this is 'keeving'. The point at issue is can
you get nutrient removal from the system (and hence slower fermentation)
with a bottom sediment rather than by a floating gel? Anecdotal evidence
(here and going back to the 18th century) indicates this may be the
case. But I don't recall it ever being formally studied!
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford, UK
www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: A trip to Australia
From: Dan Young <tandemciders@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:02:32 -0400
Hello Ciderland,
A friend, who is a big fan of cider, is leaving for a month in Australia.
He's visiting Melbourne, Sydney, and Perth. Any good cider trips he can
add to his itinerary?
Thanks for your help.
Dan Young
Tandem Ciders
Suttons Bay, MI
------------------------------
Subject: The Cider Workshop - beware of cheap imitations!
From: cider-request@talisman.com (Cider Digest)
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:42:57 -0600 (MDT)
A few Digests ago (1512), Andrew Lea mentioned the new UK-based cider
discussion group and website The Cider Workshop. The group and the
site have taken off quickly and are doing very well. I hope you've
had a chance to poke around over there.
Unfortunately, the Workshop is doing SO well that someone's been creating
"ciderworkshop" accounts here and there around the Web to try to deceive
people and lure them to his own moribund UK cider list and site. It is
not an honest mistake; it is deliberate and malicious deception.
You can find the real Cider Workshop at:
http://www.ciderworkshop.com
So...if you're browsing for cider information and stumble upon a "cider
workshop" on one of the social-networking or such-like sites, it may
well be one of these grasping attempts, and not connected to the real
thing at all. Have a close look at where the links lead you.
I'm writing this note in my "janitor" role for the Cider Digest because
it affects both groups (the Digest and the Workshop) and in general the
online "cider community" which has evolved over many years. I'm quite
unhappy at this small (we think it's just one person), selfish effort
to disrupt the community.
As Andrew said, there is no competition between this Digest and the
Cider Workshop. We're trying to help one another. There are other
lists and web sites with considerable good information on cider.
(I'll let my alter-ego write about those in another Digest.)
Meanwhile, do have a look at the Cider Workshop. Although it has a
distinct UK slant (whereas most of the readers here are in North America)
there's still plenty of good, useful information, and knowledgable
people there.
- ---
Cider Digest cider-request@talisman.com
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor Boulder County, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1516
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