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Cider Digest #1424
Subject: Cider Digest #1424, 1 December 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1424 1 December 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Harpoon Cider and Mac apples (Claude Jolicoeur)
Re: Harpoon Cider ("drcath@tiac.net")
heads up about proposed TTB regulation ("Dan Wilson")
Wild yeasts, etc. ("Walter Phelps")
Re: Stirring the Pot ("Gary Awdey")
Cider gossip (Josh Klatt)
McIntosh for cider? (re "stirring the pot") (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Harpoon Cider and Mac apples
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 00:18:14 -0500
In the last couple of digests, there have been some comments about Harpoon
Cider. I have also tasted it at CiderDay. However, I must confess I did not
pay too much attention to it - it didn't strike me as being particularely
good nor bad.
The fact that it is being made from McIntosh apples, in my opinion, is not
really relevant. Many Quebec ciders are made with Macs - some are very
good, some less... I have also made excellent cider from Macs. The main
point, I think, is how these Macs are grown. Commercially grown Macs are
big and full of water and nitrogen, usually yield a juice of a density
around 1,040 that ferments like a rocket - add to this that some cidreries
use partially rotten windfalls, add a lot of chemicals to kill germs and
sugar to bring the density up, and more sugar at bottling to make it sweet,
and you have the perfect ingredients for a very bad cider - we have had a
lot of those about 20-30 years ago when cider was thought in Quebec to be
the answer for surplus Macs. Naturally, it didn't work. People simply got
disgusted at everything called cider. Actually, when I did my first cider
batch in 1988, I did not want to make cider even if I had plenty of apples
because I thought this drink was so horrible! I finally did it with a group
of friends who had to work very hard to convince me to give it a try - they
were right and I got started by myself the following year.
In comparison, if you take Macs from my unfertilized orchard, which are
small and scabby, very low in nitrogen, and yield a juice with a density of
1,065 with a lot of flavor, and you get a completely different cider...
In the same vein, in the last digest, <32bituser@cox.net> wrote:
>On Oct 21st, I pressed 20 gallons of cider into 4 carboys. O.G. = 1.040
I would answer that, unfortunately, you probably have a bad start. I have
never made a good cider with a juice under OG 1,050, and 1,055 is much
better... Personnally, I wouldn't even try to make cider with a juice at
1,040. I did it in the past and couldn't drink it all. Sorry, I don't want
to discourage you, but for next year, I would suggest you try to find more
appropriate apples.
Claude Jolicoeur
Quebec.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Harpoon Cider
From: "drcath@tiac.net" <drcath@tiac.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:11:53 -0500
Ben, Rich, Mark, Russ, Shawn, and others et al
Thank you for responding to my post on the merits of Harpoon Cider. I
haven't found it on any shelf here in CT yet but based on your comments, I
am not missing anything.
I had two thoughts originally. First, I found it encouraging that a big
producer was thinking highly enough of the category to invest in bringing
their own example to regional market distribution under a banner touting
100% apple, locally sourced, roots in American history, etc. By doing so it
suggests that they believe there is a rising demand for craft cider which
bodes well long-term for the artisan producers among this group (turn your
board around, the wave is coming!). It's the marketing budgets of the
Harpoons, not the quality of their cider (yet), that will incubate a
growing microcider category. Then, the 750mL artisan cideries will step
forward to offer something better saying, This is all we do and we were
here first!
Second, I was looking forward to comparing it to my own cider hoping that I
can objectively claim Hey, my cellar dweller is better than Harpoon
Brewery's!
Anyway, who's next? Shipyard (NH) or Smuttynose (ME)? Otter Creek, Magic
Hat or Long Trail (VT)? Those guys could get apples from Canada (where does
Woodchuck get apples from, the grocery store?). What's going on in the Pac
NW, the birthplace of the homebrewing-turned-microbrewing revolution?
Aren't there lots of juice apples hanging around in Washington? Does Rogue
(OR) make an extreme six-pack cider? Why not? If Harpoon can toss something
together, they ought to blow their doors off (Rogue is microdistilling rum
so they are already into a second category).
I know, I'm dreaming. Call me naive, I am. Here's the basis of my rant; I
don't have a favorite microbrew. The joy is in finding new ones all the
time, discovering a new interpretation of a traditional (or a wacky
creative) style and studying the ingredients, their sources and the
brewer's process as part of the tasting experience. It's a quest, a
journey, a lifestyle. Imagine someday travelling to any town and walking
into the local pub, packy or restaurant and seeing a similar selection of
micro (and artisan) ciders. Am I mad? Do the demographics still favor the
average drinker who only wants his same old Archie Bunker can of beer every
night? Or can we encourage the Harpoon's out there to forge ahead in spite
of risk, cost and consumer ignorance to create something exciting so that
others will follow?
Boston Beer is pushing hard iced tea, FCOL. Seagram's found a way to push
wine coolers when, before, there was no such thing. I've never tried
pomegranate vodka, don't care. But Stoli believes that it's the next best
thing and they wouldn't make it if they didn't think it would sell.
Likewise, Harpoon thinks that there are at least SOME brew geeks like me
who can't wait to try their microcider. Right now, they're the only ones
competing with Hard Core and Woodchuck. Can't another try to compete with
Harpoon? Dogfish Head.... Hello???
If my dream materializes, Harpoon Cider will get better, the Woodchucks
will go extinct and our artisans herein will be riding the front of the
wave.
With holiday wishes and good cheers,
Dave Catherman
Connecticut
drcath@tiac.net
------------------------------
Subject: heads up about proposed TTB regulation
From: "Dan Wilson" <slyboro@capital.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:46:03 -0500
Hi to all,
Just read in this months issue of WineEast magazine about a new
regulation the TTB is considering that will affect all of us producers
who go throught the COLA process for label approval.
The proposed rule will require both nutritional testing and labeling
for each batch of wine (cider). Testing would include alcohol content,
serving size, servings per container, calories per serving, grams of
carbohydrate, fat and protein. The proposed rule would require this of
each batch, not just each recipe. TTB even calculated that at $250 per
analysis, a winery selling five products would incur a cost of between
$5500 and $13000 for labels. Horror show.
The TTB is accepting comments from industry (us) until January 28,
2008 regarding the impact this would have on our businesses.
According to WineEast, all comments must reference Notice No. 73,
Labeling and Advertising of Wines, Distilled Spirits and Malt Beverages,
and must include your name and mailing address. Written comments may be
mailed to the Director, Regulations and Rulings Div., Alcohol and
Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau, PO Box 14412, Washington, DC 20044-4412.
On line comments can be submitted at www.regulations.gov , following the
instructions.
The organization WineAmerica (www.wineamerica.org) also has
information about this.
Happy Holidays
Dan Wilson
Slyboro Cider House
------------------------------
Subject: Wild yeasts, etc.
From: "Walter Phelps" <walter6353@verizon.net>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:21:17 -0500
I've followed the Cider Digest with great interest and enjoyment since
subscribing a while back. In terms of technical sophistication, I would
put my efforts at the lower end of the scale. For several years, we've
made our own cider, starting out with about 20 gallons and now we're up
to about 100. We squeeze a mixture of apple varieties, mostly Spies and
Greenings, both sprayed and unsprayed, and a few wild apples that have
an appealing taste. We set it in the basement to work, with no added
yeast or other ingredients. When it's done working, we drink it. It
varies a little from batch to batch, but not much. The first glass is
OK, the second pretty good, and the third glass is great. Beyond that,
record keeping becomes difficult. The finished cider is fairly dry and
still.
I've never tasted cider in France or England, so maybe I've never tasted
"good" cider. But I'm happy to report that the worst that I've made is
still better than the best I've bought in a store.
Could it be that because I'm working with so many different wild yeasts
that they all balance each other out? Different batches seem to take
different routes in terms of how active they are at different points in
the process, but they all seem to arrive at about the same destination
eventually.
Walter
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Stirring the Pot
From: "Gary Awdey" <gawdey@att.net>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2007 06:24:34 -0500
In CD #1423 Russell Holmberg wrote in response to Ben Watson's posting, in
which Ben contrasted Harpoon Cider to the Boston Beer Company's trial ciders
of 2003:
> I talked to these folks too. They did use some some real cider apples.
> But, I know at least one of the ciders they were pouring was made from 95%
> Gala apple juice with 5% bittersweet concentrate from England. I remember
> clearly how the Sam's rep was really excited to tell me how much they liked
> using Gala. I suspect that the other products they were pouring had some
> degree of concentrate/"unsavory" juice in them as well. Anyone else know
> anything about these products?
There's more that I don't know than do know. However I do know that Boston
Beer Company makes a variety of trial ciders, some of which are entered into
competitions. I'd be very surprised if some of them are not also used in
market studies but that's just speculation. In this case it's probably a
good idea resist the temptation to extrapolate too much from one rep's
comment about trials with one variety. I have heard similar enthusiasm
voiced by other cidermakers about other varieties. Sometimes (but not
always) a new product ensues to complement the rest of the lineup. If the
Boston Beer Company markets a new cider then that will be the time to
rethink what sort of cider producer it is. However there appears to be more
uncertainty at the marketing end than at the technical end.
In the earlier posting (CD #1422 ) Ben wrote of the Boston Beer company's
trial ciders as domestic examples that are a contrast to the Harpoon Cider.
This included a parenthetical reference to the BBC's competition success
under dubious conditions (before Ben went on to praise the BBC cider
lavishly). My recollection is that there were a few eyebrows raised at the
unexpected success of the Boston Beer Company at the 2003 Hereford Cider
Museum's International Cider Competition. By convention the three person
judging panel included one cidermaking expert. In that year the cidermaking
expert was Alan Tringham, who was also reportedly a consultant for the
Boston Beer Company in their cider trials. One might be tempted to conclude
from the unfortunate and apparent conflict of interest that the award was
undeserved. I'm happy to report that BBC has removed some tarnish from that
medal with continued success. The Boston Beer Company took a bronze medal
in the same competition this year but with a different panel of judges.
This is a competition with an extremely high caliber of entries and bronze
is a tiny margin away from silver and gold. In my eyes the Boston Beer
Company's trial ciders...at least some of them, and not necessarily all of
the ones poured at Ciderday...have established themselves as one of the
small handful of US benchmarks of success with English cider styles. So far
that's at the technical end, not the marketing end (where we can only wait
to see what may be in the works). The thing that I admire about BBC's
approach to these trials (and this seems to be consistent with BBC's
approach to ingredients as a key factor in beer as well) is the
understanding up front about the importance of the selection of fruit used.
Why is Harpoon being marketed now but not BBC's award-winning cider? I
blame our (meaning consumers') insistence on predictability and producers'
understanding of that insistence and willingness to exploit it. By choosing
to use varieties that are perennially available as surplus Harpoon is
ensured a consistent, low-cost supply. Call it swill if that's your
evaluation of it, but it'll be the same swill year in and year out, and many
who like it may keep on buying it. As long as we value consistency and
predictability over quality that's what we'll get. The first swill to
market enjoys the advantage of novelty and gets more market share. A
microbrewery can roll out a new beer and hope to market to a local clientele
without a lot of difficulty. With a national producer or large regional
producer the logistics are different. If the Boston Beer Company (for
clarity, not the same company that produces Harpoon) released an incredible
cider but then could not sell anything comparable for a few years due to
shortage of similar fruit what would customer reaction be? Would there be
an angry backlash? Would there be a huge loss taken on marketing a new
brand and then not being able to continue to sell the brand? Even small
businesses feel the customer push for predictability.
I have a confession to make. I like those artery-clogging breakfast
sandwiches from McDonalds. Know what I like even more? Breakfast
sandwiches from the Woodlawn Deli on Route 5. You've almost certainly never
heard of it, just as I've never heard of your local equivalent. The
sandwiches are incredible. They go under the same generic name but have
different ingredients and different preparation. Cider is like that. If
the mass marketed stuff is all you can get and it's not too bad then why not
drink it? When obviously better stuff is available then it's a question of
whether or not the improved quality is worth the difference in price or
convenience in obtaining it. Much has been made of price in the context of
packaging in beer bottles versus wine bottles. Convenience is another big
factor that doesn't get the discussion it deserves. With a Starbucks and
McDonalds on practically every corner in some high-traffic areas areas or at
every exit from the Interstate it's not difficult to see why those companies
enjoy good consumer recognition and draw repeat business. If Woodchuck (or
any other Macro) is on the shelf in a local store but a really nice
alternative is an hour or two away at a specialty store how many people in
your community will try the Woodchuck and how many will try (or even hear
about) the alternative? Better still, how many will try both side-by-side?
Maybe the Macro ciders don't have a place in the ever-popular tasting salon
at Ciderday, but maybe a separate panel discussion in which they're tasted
and analyzed side-by-side with craft ciders would promote some interesting
discussion. You'd have to have representation of the Macro producer,
however, because panel discussions in which everyone agrees just aren't as
memorable.
Gary Awdey
Eden, New York
------------------------------
Subject: Cider gossip
From: Josh Klatt <josh@klattcider.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 08:50:58 -0500
A little gossip for the cider digesters:
All the talk about the beer folks like Boston Beer Co. and Harpoon
has coincided with my reception of an email to all the attendees of
Peter Mitchell's cider production workshop in Geneva, NY next week.
I happened to notice the domain names on 3 of the email addresses
included "bostonbeer.com" and "harpoonbrewery.com"-- So if they
churn out inferior products in years to come, no one can claim they
didn't know any better!
Josh
"After all, one of the great and noble functions of womanhood is to
stand by and hand things to men to work with." -Vrest Orton in The
American Cider Book
------------------------------
Subject: McIntosh for cider? (re "stirring the pot")
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2007 17:21:01 -0700
Russell Holmberg (info@holmbergorchards.com) said in the last digest, in
the Harpoon Cider discussion re the use of McIntosh:
> Yes, I was disappointed Harpoon cider. But, it was obvious to me that the
> fault was not the ingredients - but the process. Lets says that they did
> start with 100% mac juice. Unsavory? Consider that west county had an
> "organic mac" label out for a few years (maybee still do?). Proof to
> me that it can be done. Harpoon certainly has enough technology at their
> disposal to make it happen. They just need to work on how to do it.
Russell, yes, a good cider can be made from Macs--as you say, West County
did it a few years ago, and it was very good, so "anything that exists is
possible."
But you've missed an important point: McIntosh are not all alike just
because they're the same cultivar. There's a variety of characteristics
in effect--slightly different variants of the cultivar, soil, climate,
grower's habits, etc. It is definitely NOT all "process" separating a
good Mac cider from a poor one.
The one factor that jumps out at me is that Terry (West County) was using
organic fruit. This makes it very likely that the orchard was -not-
heavily fertilized, which makes a big difference in fruit quality. Apples
from trees which get substantial, regular doses of nitrogen fertilizer will
be bigger but less flavorful, with lower-quality juice that will ferment
faster. This is a trap in trying to use table fruit from conventional
orchards for cider.
Naturally it also doesn't hurt that Terry Maloney is a master cidermaker
with something like a quarter century of experience!
For some to-the-point comments on the effect of fertilizer in the orchard,
see Andrew Lea's web pages, under the heading "Nitrogen - the forgotten
element."
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1424
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