Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Cider Digest #1420
Subject: Cider Digest #1420, 11 November 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1420 11 November 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Plastic Press racks needed (Dick Dunn)
Re: plastic press racks (Bill)
Re: freezing sweet cider (Bill)
Frequin apples (Claude Jolicoeur)
Re:Plastic Press Racks ("Ray Blockley")
washing apples before milling (Dan Young)
RE: Freezing Cider (Larry Gianakis)
Call for Entries: Dickens Fair Black & Tan (Kevin Pratt)
Cultivars vs. climate (Tim Bray)
Frequin Rouge (david.pickering@dpi.nsw.gov.au)
Subject: Plastic Press racks needed ("David Lee")
Thiamin and yeast; sugars and HPLC (Andrew Lea)
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the
message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them.
Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Plastic Press racks needed
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 19:03:28 -0700
Ira Edwards <ira_j_e@hotmail.com> wrote about replacing his wood press
racks with plastic:
> ...bought some 1/2" HDPE cutting boards material.
> I went andcut it into 15" squares and notched grooves on my table saw
> with a dado blade such that the grooves were EXACTLY halfway through,
> to allow juice to flow through. I cut vertical grooves on one side and
> horizontal grooves on the other side to for am cross pattern.
There was a discussion of this some time back but I can't remember where
nor find it. (Must have been on ukcider.) I did some experimenting with
HDPE racks but got sidetracked before actually converting my press. I used
a router table with a straight bit, which is effectively a dado cut on the
gross level, but read on.
> Almost every plate cracked in more than one place along my cut marks. I got
> the juice pressed out and all, but the plates are kind of useless at this
> point and I need something better for next year ...
I found this problem early on in my experiments. The problem of course is
that the very square bottom of the dado channel focuses stress right there
along the edge of the cut; if you flex the rack much it all ends up there.
Plus the corners where the crossing channels meet form a point where a
crack can start and run.
So I modified the bit to a slight radius at the corners, and that seemed to
help quite a bit. However, as I say I never got into "production" pressing
with the test racks.
Ira, you may find that using a dado blade makes the problem even worse than
what I saw with the router bit--because some dado blade systems have a very
slight "ear" at the corners of the dado. This is done to minimize tear-out
as the blade goes into the surface of the material, also to be sure the
bottom of the dado cut isn't rounded at all. In normal use this is what
you want so that the fitted piece bottoms correctly, but for this purpose
it's exactly wrong.
IIRC (which seems unlikely I know, but give it a chance) John Campbell had
discussed and perhaps uses a similar approach except using a rounded bit
to avoid the stress-focusing problem entirely.
> Any ideas on specific types of plastic to look for or order? would 3/4"
> thick plates have made things any better?
HDPE is about the best from the standpoint of flexing plus food-safe. I
wouldn't even consider acrylic; I can't guess about polycarbonate.
As to thickness, my experiments were with 3/4" material.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: plastic press racks
From: Bill <squeeze@mars.ark.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 19:06:47 -0800
Ira's problem with cracking HDPE racks appears to me to be a problem of
useage rather than a problem with the material or cutting technique -
I've been using HDPE racks made in a similar fashion [but 3/8 thick, and
24" square] for over 20 years, and have only one rack with a crack a few
inches long in one rabet. I gave up wooden racks after the 2nd year.
Rack pic here: <http://mars.ark.com/~squeeze/pressing/rack.jpg>
With soft, pulpy apples, thinner layers are needed, and careful building
of the press pack to minimize slippage and movement of cheeses - as
well, the cheese shouldn't extend beyond the rack at any time.
A page with some of my press techniques from some years ago:
<http://mars.ark.com/~squeeze/pressing/>
Bill <http://mars.ark.com/~squeeze/>
------------------------------
Subject: Re: freezing sweet cider
From: Bill <squeeze@mars.ark.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 19:19:44 -0800
Freezing 'raw juice' for drinking later is what most of the folks in
this area do with the thousands of gallons of custom pressing I do for
them - I always recommend containers smaller than a gallon [1-2 liters
preferably] so the freezing and thawing time won't cut too much off the
shelf life of the fresh juice, lots of folks use large zip-lock bags -
keeps fine for up to a year, although cheap plastic containers may
result in off flavors after that long.
I haven't found any need to 'top up' a fermentation, OTOH, I always use
pasteurized juice as the sugar addition when bottling fermented cider
sparkling, 1 liter of pasteurized juice to a 20 or 23 liter carboy
provides the perfect amount of spark for me.
Bill <http://mars.ark.com/~squeeze/>
------------------------------
Subject: Frequin apples
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 00:46:49 -0500
I finally found the Frequin tardive de la Sarthe in the Fleckinger book -
it is listed simply as "Tardive de la Sarthe", with Frequin... as a
synonym. In any case, from what I can see, it appears useless for me
because it would ripen too late for my short Quebec season and I doubt it
would mature properly.
The Frequin rouge could be a better choice for me, but I don't need another
bittersharp - I have plenty of sharp apples and I really need more
bittersweets to mix. I have Yarlington Mill, Coat Jersey, Bulmer's Norman
and Muscadet de Dieppe that do well in that category, but I wouldn't mind a
few others, especially not quite as early as the Bulmer and the Muscadet -
any suggestions?
Claude Jolicoeur
Quebec
------------------------------
Subject: Re:Plastic Press Racks
From: "Ray Blockley" <rayblockley@ntlworld.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 09:16:16 -0000
Hi Ira,
As Dick is aware, I too had been playing around with the idea of using
plastic for press-racks here in the UK. About three years ago, I sourced
some 15mm HDPE, white food-grade, from a commercial plastics supplier -
it was cheaper to buy it in 6 x 4 sheets. Like you, I cut it up into
squares on the circular saw but when I grooved it on the saw, I set the
depth very carefully so that each cut was only one third of the
thickness of the sheet. Like you I also cut horizontal on one side,
vertical on the other.
In three years use, with just over 100 gallons pressed so far this year,
they have remained perfect and do a very good job - and are so much
easier to clean! My only gripe is that sawing the grooves releases some
of the stresses from manufacture of the sheet and the racks curve in two
different directions on opposite faces - nothing that can't be overcome,
but irritating when you are after the perfect uniform cheese!
Happy pressing,
Ray.
Nottingham, (old) England.
I'd recommend them to anybody.
------------------------------
Subject: washing apples before milling
From: Dan Young <tandemciders@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 06:45:52 -0500
I have a question about washing apples prior to milling and pressing.
I pressed four boxes of Northern Spy this past weekend. I received the
apples about three weeks before. I left them outside to "sweat". I
noticed my cats hanging around the boxes. I suspected mice and when we
emptied the boxes we found little nests, chewed fruit, and some poop.
We dumped the apples into a large stainless steel "cherry tank" that holds
maybe 200 gallons of water. I tried to keep a fairly continuous supply
of water into the tank, but only have one hose. Should I add some
bleach or other sanitizer to the water? I worried about residual
bleach carrying over into the cider, but I'm also worried about a large
bacterial load as well? Should I sulfite at a higher than normal rate?
Should I chill out?
The juice was put into one large fermenter, I added 75ppm SO2, and dosed
with 71B after 24 hours.
I have four more boxes outside in the cold now, and since the cats are not
doing their job, I'll set some traps.
Thanks,
Dan Young
Suttons Bay, MI
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Freezing Cider
From: Larry Gianakis <lgianakis@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 05:47:40 -0800 (PST)
Ben
Last season I froze cider and added the concentrate as you described
just before bottling around Memorial Day. The cider was crystal clear,
now however there is a white sediment on the bottom that I suspect has
something to do with the pectins in the cider.
Larry
------------------------------
Subject: Call for Entries: Dickens Fair Black & Tan
From: Kevin Pratt <brewfun@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 06:16:28 -0800 (PST)
So you think you make a Dickens of a brew?
Prove it luvy and join us for the... 1st annual Dickens Christmas Fair
Black & Tan Homebrew Competition.
This is the first call for entries!
All competition entrants who wish to attend may receive 2 free tickets to the
Fair (a $44.00 value) and a chance at fame and fortune (well, at least fame).
This is a limited style competition of basically English Ales and Ciders
???and a few American styles of both to make it interesting.
Best of Show prizes include a custom jacket from Lagunitas Brewing Company!
The competition is December 1st. The Fair takes place at the San Francisco
Cow Palace Exhibition Halls on 5 weekends Nov. 23 to Dec. 23 2007.
Entry window is November 12, 2007 and November 23, 2007, 5PM. Rules and
entry information is at: www.dickensfair.com/brewcomp/brewcomp1.html
Entry registration is at: www.HordsOfFun.Com/hbc.rw/regwiz.aspx?w=0816082732
------------------------------
Subject: Cultivars vs. climate
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 09:47:12 -0800
I grow in a very unusual climate on the north coast of California, where
the marine influence is excessive (USDA Zone 9/10). It never gets very
hot, nor very cold, although we do get sufficient chill for most
cultivars; it just never gets much below 30F.
The following do not get sufficient winter chill; bud break is delayed
and growth is poor: Harry Masters Jersey, Stoke Red, Bedan, Noel des
Champs. I've grubbed out the first three and replanted; am working over
the NdC, which helpfully sent up a lot of rootstock suckers.
The following do well here: Nehou, Kingston Black, Muscat de Bernay,
Taylor's, Tale Sweet, Fillbarrel, Yarlington Mill, Black Twig, King
David, Roxbury Russet, Golden Russet.
Muscadet de Dieppe seemed to do all right for a few years but have now
all succumbed to disease, probably a version of Phytophthora (which is
bad here). They never did produce very well though. Major grows slowly
but beautifully, was slow to come into production, and crops moderately.
Sweet Coppin grows well, though it breaks and blooms late, and crops
moderately well. It drops a lot of fruit before ripe, though.
Hewes Virginia Crab grows well and put on one great crop but has been
disappointing the last two years. Wickson does poorly and never has put
on much of a crop - but someone 5 miles up the road, where the summers
are warmer and sunnier, raves about how precocious and productive they are!
In contrast to Tim Steury's experience, Nehou has been precocious and
productive here. KB grows all right and came into production about as
expected, but doesn't really produce all that much fruit. It also
ripens early, contrary to published information. This year I got enough
fruit from four KBs (planted as whips in 2000) and two Nehou (grafted in
2001) on M106 to make 5 gallons. I had almost as much fruit from the
two little Nehou as from the four much larger KBs.
Don't know if any of that helps, as I doubt anyone else is growing in
such an odd climate. But it does demonstrate the importance of local
climate conditions on fruit performance. Another aspect is fruit
quality and character - my apples tend to have more acid, less sugar,
and more tannin than those grown in hotter climates. I get better
sugar/acid ratios by leaving the fruit on the tree as long as possible
before picking, and then sweating the fruit in storage.
Cheers,
Tim in Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Frequin Rouge
From: david.pickering@dpi.nsw.gov.au
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 16:44:50 +1100
Digest 1418 had mentions of Frequin Rouge.
Having just had discussions with INRA at Angers and CTPC at Sees, it would
appear that Frequin Rouge is probably one of the more troublesome
cultivars in terms of what you have when you have "Frequin Rouge". There
is a lot of variation in clones with this name.
I can only suggest that you append something to your tree planting plans
if you know where your budwood came from and can trace the accession
number back to (for instance) Geneva. There is not going to be a quick fix
to sorting this cultivar out.
Ideally see and taste fruit from the scion mother tree before buying
nursery trees so that you get what you expect.
David Pickering
Orange Agricultural Institute, NSW Dept of Primary Industries
Forest Road, Orange, NSW 2800, Australia
david.pickering@dpi.nsw.gov.au
phone 02 6391 3800 fax 02 6391 3899 mobile 042 727 1477
------------------------------
Subject: Subject: Plastic Press racks needed
From: "David Lee" <dave@dleeco.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 17:35:49 -0500
Ira- I have made the plastic racks, and have broken some of those cut
with the dado grooves too deep. I guess the sharp corners create stress
risers that can't resist the bending. The replacement ones I made with a
router and 1/2" core box (half round) bit set to cut about 1/4" deep.
Don't worry about going halfway through to make them look like lattice,
the juice runs out just fine. I used 1" material because I had it, but
I'm sure 3/4" HDPE material would be fine. Dave Lee
------------------------------
Subject: Thiamin and yeast; sugars and HPLC
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 18:02:30 +0000
Two questions were asked of me by name in CD #1419 so I thought I'd
better try to answer....
Warwick Billings wrote:
> I have heard, and it would seem plausible that the early fermenting
> non- saccharomyces yeasts deplete thiamine in particular from the
> must. This can result in slower/naturally sweeter ferments due to the
> saccharomyces not having adequate thiamine. Given that thiamine is
> quite a common yeast food in wineries in Europe, this all seemed
> possible. Would be interested to hear Andrew's view.
Well thiamin (aka vitamin B1) is certainly often lacking in apple
juices, more so than in grape musts. Thiamin is an essential
requirement for any yeast to complete the alcoholic fermentation since
it is a co-factor in the penultimate step (pyruvate to acetaldehyde, the
last stage before ethanol), although yeasts can and do synthesise a
certain amount for themselves. It is often the case that ciders 'stick'
due to lack of thiamin (perhaps more so than lack of amino acids).
Indeed the whole process of 'keeving' to ensure a controlled 'sticking'
and thereby a naturally sweet cider is about the removal of thiamin and
other positively charged nutrients from the juice onto the pectin gel.
I had not heard this story about the non-Saccharomyces yeasts taking
thiamine out of the system, although it is generally accepted that wild
yeasts can inhibit the later action of cultured yeasts, and I couldn't
find it in any of the standard winemaking textbooks that I consulted.
However, I dug a bit deeper into the technical literature and it seems
to come from just one paper by a very respected team of French workers
at INRA in Montpellier in 1996, although it has been picked up and
rehashed quite a few times in the lay winemaking press since. They
showed that Kloeckera apiculata or Saccharomyces as contaminants could
deplete thiamine 'within a few hours', and affect the subsequent
fermentation of an added Saccharomyces. Some caveats, though - the work
was only carried in a culture medium not a wine, there was some
indication that Kloeckera might re-release the thiamine it had stored,
and the phenomenon was more noticeable in media with high assimilable
nitrogen concentrations. The paper (Bataillon et al, J Ferm Bioeng
(1996) 82 145-450) is quite complicated and not an easy read.
But this could nonetheless be relevant to the mixed microflora
fermentations so common in the French cider industry, which are all
intended to result in a 'stuck' sweet cider, or indeed to any of us
using wild yeast successions. Interesting, to say the least! Thank you
Warwick for bringing this one up.
- -----------
Charles wrote:
> On a different topic: Andrew, how would one go about measuring a
> glucose:fructose ratio? I used to have an hplc set up with a diff.
> RI, but the mobile phase was H2SO4. It resolved the sugars fine, but
> would it leave the ratio alone? It inverted any sucrose added.
This one is *very* specialist and really only for analytical chemists!
The inversion issue can be a problem using resin columns and acidic
mobile phases. Sucrose does invert and this will raise the G and F
levels by equal amounts. There will be some sucrose naturally in apple
juice so this could be an issue, although in fact the inversion will
occur in the cider during fermentation too, so in a sense you are not
changing anything that's going to happen anyway.
There is a fix if you need it. You use a calcium-loaded column, with
neutral water as the eluent but containing small amounts of calcium
propionate (AFAIR) in the mobile phase to prevent the calcium being
stripped. This system does not invert the sucrose.
Andrew
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1420
*************************
