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Cider Digest #1429
Subject: Cider Digest #1429, 31 December 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1429 31 December 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
digests getting lost (Cider Digest Admin)
Re: Red fleshed cider (Claude Jolicoeur)
Re: Some thoughts about 2007 GLOWS Results (Claude Jolicoeur)
Fermentation speed (Claude Jolicoeur)
High FG in French-Style cider (Donald Davenport)
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Subject: digests getting lost
From: cider-request@talisman.com (Cider Digest Admin)
Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 01:22:05 -0700 (MST)
If you receive your digest email via Yahoo!'s mail service, you are
increasingly likely to miss issues of the digest because Yahoo! refuses
to deliver them. You may want to (re)consider your email provider.
If you're thinking of moving your email -to- Yahoo!, I'd strongly suggest
you think twice before doing so.
There are various "free e-mail" services around, and of course their
quality may change over time. However, Yahoo!'s mail service seems to
have been, let us say, overpriced for a while now.
The delivery problem is at Yahoo!; there's nothing I can do to fix it. It
has been going on for more than a year, and affects many senders trying to
get mail to Yahoo! accounts. (It's only in the past couple months that it
has significantly affected subscribers to the digests here.) The cause of
it is a Yahoo! attempt at spam-blocking which is either mis-implemented or
way too aggressive.
(The brief tech explanation is that it's gray-listing which fails to white-
list when it should and fails to maintain the white-listing. If you'd like
a more thorough explanation [either with more detail, or a layman's version]
contact me at the digest admin address cider-request@talisman.com
I won't discuss it further on-list.)
Dick
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Subject: Re: Red fleshed cider
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 23:13:27 -0500
In Cider Digest #1428, 20 December 2007
>Subject: Red fleshed cider
>From: "Siloam Orchards" <mail@siloamorchards.com>
>Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 08:57:02 -0500
>
>Thanks to all who have responded re red fleshed cider.
>I have a number of red fleshed apple varieties on site, some sweeter
>varieties with less tannin and acidity
Eric,
Could you please tell us more about your sweeter and less acid redflesh
varieties, have you done some measurements on juice? What are their names?
Thanks,
Claude
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Subject: Re: Some thoughts about 2007 GLOWS Results
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 00:00:36 -0500
in Cider Digest #1428, 20 December 2007
>Subject: Re: Some thoughts about 2007 GLOWS Results
>From: "Gary Awdey" <gawdey@att.net>
>Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2007 21:21:00 -0500
>This phenomenon of drawing more local entries tends to be typical of most
>cider competitions. When the North West Cider Society had yearly
>competitions it drew entries from around the US and Canada but predominantly
>the Pacific Northwest......
>It is really not so surprising that so many awards went to Michigan
>producers in GLOWS. On both the commercial and noncommercial side of the
>competition a great number of the entries were from Michigan. Any new (or
>young) competition may need to work extra hard to establish its credibility.
Gary,
I hope I didn't sound too rude in my precedent message. On second thought,
it does make sense that a competition draws primarely local entries, but
somehow, I had imagined this competition would have attracted a lot more
people from outside Michigan...
On another subject, you probably had about ten ciders in this competition.
And I guess some others also had a good number. Don't you think there
should be a maximum number of entries for a participant?
Claude
------------------------------
Subject: Fermentation speed
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2007 00:17:14 -0500
I have a question for those who have more knowledge on fermentation
chemistry.
I have noticed a strong correlation between the date of pressing and the
fermentation speed.
Taking the same variety, and even from the same tree, if I make a pressing
soon after harvest, the resulting cider will have tendency do ferment
relatively quickly. But if I wait until the apples become very ripe or
slightly overripe, the resulting cider will be much slowlier.
I admit temperature may come into play as my fermentation room is cooler
for the later presses, but this does not seem to explain everything. My
feeling is that there would be another factor into play (but maybe I am
wrong). Could it be that Nitrogen would evaporate from the ripening apples,
or some other component that may influence fermentation? There surely are
some volatile components that are removed as the apples ripen - it can be
smelled!
If someone has an idea, I would be appreciate hearing it...
Claude Jolicoeur
------------------------------
Subject: High FG in French-Style cider
From: Donald Davenport <djdavenport@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2007 09:33:26 -0700
Hello all--
My friend and I are trying to puzzle through an odd, seemingly
contradictory situation with a bottle of supposed "authentic" French
cider.
It's a bottle of 2006 Sidra Doux by Eric Bordelet.
The label says 4% ABV.
When we opened it, we about did "spit takes." It was, as my friend's
wife put it, "wine cooler" sweet.
So, out came the hydrometer and eventually it settled into a
(corrected) reading of 1.042. That's not that far from the OG on a
couple of our current cider batches.
What would be helpful is to correct my misconceptions or otherwise
explain how a bottle of cider in this style could be so sweet and
still maintain such a (relatively) high level of alcohol.
It would seem that to end with 4% ABV and a FG of 1.043, you'd have
to have a OG of somewhere around 1.070+. On a really great year,
with lots of sun, we may approach 1.060, but in the 1.070s seems
astronomically high. Is it reasonable to expect that the cider-maker
is able to get that much sugar naturally?
A further question is "Does this represent the true, French-style
ciders?" From all the research we've done, if you can arrest and
stabilize fermentation at around 1.020, that's considered "sweet."
1.015, semi-sweet. 1.010, off-dry, etc. But 1.042? It's really
cloying sweet.
Finally, what conclusions should we draw? That additional sugar was
added? That the 4% ABV on the label is wrong? That our expectations
were wrong about what a traditional French-style cider profile should
be (certainly not out of the question)?
The stuff wasn't cheap. About US$15 a bottle.
We're just a little confused.
Thanks and Happy New Year!
Donald Davenport
Santa Fe, NM
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End of Cider Digest #1429
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