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Cider Digest #1445
Subject: Cider Digest #1445, 7 April 2008
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1445 7 April 2008
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Cider Digest is back (Cider Digest Admin)
? ("HEATHER MOORE NIVER")
UV doesn't kill yeast (lotic@juno.com)
Map of all cider producers ("J. Kent")
Pasteurisation (con.traas@theapplefarm.com)
Sanitizing apple wash (Charles Mcgonegal)
Bottling keeved cider at high SG's (stewart lucas)
Exclusive cider apples (Claude Jolicoeur)
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
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Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Cider Digest is back
From: cider-request@talisman.com (Cider Digest Admin)
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 00:48:23 -0600 (MDT)
Sorry if you've noticed an interruption in the Cider Digest, particularly
in being able to submit articles. We had a significant DoS attack by the
spamswine; I chose to shut off incoming mail for a while rather than try to
fight hand-to-hand. Couldn't give advance warning; that would have been
counterproductive.
I hope we'll be back without interruption for a while now, but there are no
guarantees. Main concern: If you try to submit an article to the digest
and it gets tossed back at you as if the digest didn't exist, hang on and
try again. If it keeps failing, check the obits for our area! No, not
even that; I've got folks backing me up. We'll be back in a day or three.
One real problem is we've got a handful of people on the digest who flat
out don't care...they don't virus-check their machines; they surf the Web
with abandon and download anything that's offered to them. Then when they
get a digest, their infected machines wreak havoc on us. Kinda like the
person who shows up at a big party, coughing and sneezing on everybody,
"Sorry, but I couldn't miss this party!" And there's nothing I can do
here, because I can't root out the culprits. I can't find them; all I can
find is their germs.
SO: Please, hang in there. I'll keep it going best I can. If you submit
and it gets bounced back, pause and keep trying.
yer patience-impaired janitor
------------------------------
Subject:
From: "HEATHER MOORE NIVER" <rniver@fairpoint.net>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:04:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1443, 21 March 2008
From: "derek grout" <derekgrout@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Mar 2008 13:54:03 -0400
I'm a licensed farm distillery, making vodka and apple schnapps from
fermented apple cider. I can't add SO2 to the cider before I pitch my yeast,
because the sulfur flavors will concentrate in the distillate and the sulfur
is bad for the copper still. In lieu of heat pasteurization, I plan on
treating my next batch of cider with ultraviolet light to kill off naturally
occurring yeast and bacteria.
Do you know of anyone else who has successfully treated their fruit mash
with ultraviolet light before fermentation?
thanks,
Derek Grout
Harvest Spirits
Valatie, NY
http://www.harvestspirits.com/
mailto:derekgrout@gmail.com
Hi Derek,
I'm a beginning cider maker in Valatie. I made about 8 gallons this
winter. I buy your UV treated sweet cider very often. It's among the
best local sweet ciders. But if I don't drink a gallon of your cider
fast enough. It will start to ferment in my fridge. Could it be that UV
doesn't kill all the yeast? Or possibly yeast in my kitchen is getting
into the jug in the short time when I pour it.
Anyway, I should come by and talk to you sometime. I'm interested in
buying some sweet cider in bulk next year to make a barrel cider.
Ryan Niver,
Valatie, NY
mail to:rniver@berk.com
------------------------------
Subject: UV doesn't kill yeast
From: lotic@juno.com
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:15:09 -0400
replying to "Licensed distiller in CT". Cider Digest #1444.
Mr. Grout,
While UV is good at killing bacteria ("Cider-sure"), it has very
little effect upon yeast (a fungus). Heat and sulfites still remain the
most popular methods of killing yeast. However, there is also "sterile
filtration". This will require a filtration down to (AT LEAST) 0.45um
(probably smaller). That is no mean feat if you are starting with a
cloudy cider. Also, you must be very very sure that your filtration
equipment is operating at peak efficiency.
I too have been looking into the creation of apple schnapps from
hard cider. I'm not ready to deal with the licensing, regulations, and
added equipment costs (maybe I never will), but I always thought that the
heat from the still would kill off any yeasts. Also, wont the high
alcohol content (>40%) kill off the yeast? If SO2 remains your only
choice, and you are concerned with the damage it may do to your
equipment, then perhaps you can add it just prior to bottling (post
distillation).
Peter Mitchell
------------------------------
Subject: Map of all cider producers
From: "J. Kent" <Sheep@kent9999.freeserve.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2008 17:35:20 -0000
Dear All,
Is there a map produced showing all cider producers in the USA and Canada?
Reason: For a tour in the future.
Thanks
Jeremy Kent
Herefordshire UK
------------------------------
Subject: Pasteurisation
From: con.traas@theapplefarm.com
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 05:46:21 -0700 (PDT)
Hello all,
Although I have never tried to pasteurise cider, drinking dry home-made
stuff, down the years from listening, I have come to understand that some
cider-makers who use this process use it very gently. It seems that any
temperature above 60 C can effect pasteurisation, and that it takes a lot
less to pasteurise cider (presumably because there is alcohol, perhaps
some CO2, and perhaps some sulphite) in there. I was led to believe that
as little as 50 PU's (pasteurising units) might be enough, where a PU is a
degree above 60 for 1 minute. For example 50 PU's would be 62 degrees for
25 minutes. This is not much different to Stuart's suggestion.
I would love if someone had some extra information about how many PU's
might be appropriate, depending on alcohol levels, sugar levels, and other
factors, and perhaps also estimated yeast loads.
Con Traas
------------------------------
Subject: Sanitizing apple wash
From: Charles Mcgonegal <cpm@appletrue.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:34:31 -0500
Derek, I wouldn't worry about using modest levels of sulfite in an
apple wash that's going to be distilled. I don't have problems with
what I ferment and send out to be distilled. Usually 40-80 ppm,
depending on pH. You could always knock it out with hydrogen peroxide
just before distilling. Anyway, it doesnt end up in the hearts.
The prevailing wisdom among distillers seems to be to hit the must/
wash/mash with a really fast, aggressive yeast (8%abv in 2-3 days) and
then distill it quick. I remain to be convinced that that's the best
route to cider brandy.
I've fermented sweet cider that's been through a CiderSure unit. It
doesnt seem to be adversely affected. On the otherhand, the in the one
direct comparison I did, it slowed the wild fermentation very little -
call it 25%, or one day.
Another resource to ask this question on is the newly formed
adiforums.com from the American distilling institute.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
Elegant Hard Cider and Orchard Wines
>>Sent from my iPhone<<
------------------------------
Subject: Bottling keeved cider at high SG's
From: stewart lucas <stewartlucas@ntlworld.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Apr 2008 08:09:35 +0100
Is there anyone out there who can give me definitive, empirical based
answers to to the question, 'what is the best way to bottle high
gravity, _keeved_ cider without inadvertently making a bomb?'. Is it
enough to allow the cider to stabilise, maybe at a gravity of over
1.020, and then bottle?
I attended a small presentation from a fine Anglo/French cidermaker Adam
Bland last year who said,
'You must now choose the final bottled gravity. For example, if you want
to bottle at 1020, rack the juice off the sediment at 1030. You now want
a fermentation of no more than 3 degrees every 10 days, ideally 1 or 2
degrees. If at 10-15?C, it drops no more than 2 degrees in 10 days, you
can bottle, and there'll be just enough fermentation to give some fizz.
If it's too fast, rack again at 1022 and hope for a slower fermentation.
You can also filter half the juice at 1022 to reduce the yeast population.'
The key thing here appears to be the dropping of 1 to 2 degrees of
gravity over 10 days at 10-15C. Would anybody like to comment on this?
The other things I would like to know are, after the cider has
stabilised and put into champagne style bottles, what type of closures
are best [safest]? Is it OK, for example, to wire on a champagne style
cork or should you put on a standard 29mm cap so excess pressure can
'leak'? After all this, is it then dangerous to store the bottles
horizontally?
All this seems to fly in the face of standard wisdom that anything with
a gravity over 1.010 cannot be bottled safely, but I've tasted very
sweet French, Normandy style bottled ciders.
I have about 350 litres each of keeved Dabinett and Yarlington Mill
cider, which have been fermented with natural yeasts [they work well
here in Wales]. They are very fermenting very slowly [currently around
1.030 - 1.045 from 1.058 after 130days] and look like they will be ready
May or June. I have non-keeved ciders which I am happy to allow to
ferment to below 1.010 before I bottle, but I just dont think the keeved
ciders are going to get that far and to be honest, I want to preserve
all that delicious natural sweetness.
I am looking for solutions that do not involve pasteurisation.
I apologise in advance if this subject has been covered in this way before.
Stewart Lucas
Blaengawney Cider
Wales UK
------------------------------
Subject: Exclusive cider apples
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2008 01:38:47 -0400
This message is to tell about 3 exclusive apples that I use for my ciders.
They are exclusive in the sense that they are apples that I discovered and
I haven't propagated them much yet. After many years of using them, I think
they have enough merits to be tested in other locations than my orchard.
First, here is a description of them:
"Douce Charlevoisienne" (Charlevoix Sweet in English) is an apple that I
collected in the village of Baie-Saint-Paul, county of Charlevoix, Quebec.
It appears to be from a seedling rootstock that overgrew the grafted
variety. This apple could be classified as a sweet or as a mild
bittersweet, suitable for early season cider. In my orchard, about 50 miles
NE of Quebec City, zone 4, I normally harvest it during first week of
September and press it about 2 weeks later. This is about the same timing
as Bulmer's Norman and Breakwell's Seedling. Since 1992 when I first
pressed some of these apples, I have obtained juice with a S.G. ranging
from 1.047 to 1.057, and titrable acidity expressed as tartaric acid from
0.25% to 0.4%. These numbers are quite comparable to those I have obtained
from the Bulmer's Norman, although the latter is some years slightly higher
in density and in acidity.
Douce Charlevoisienne is a very handsome apple that reach about 2.5 inches
across, it is conical in shape and striped orange-red on a greenish
background. It is productive annually, vigourous and hardy. In my orchard,
it gets very little scab even if I don't spray. It is also one of my most
efficient apples in terms of yield of juice per weight of apples. The juice
has an excellent flavour with a mild bitterness - it is not very
interesting to drink nature because of the lack of acidity. The only
drawback I find to this apple for cider is that I would prefer a higher
sugar content.
"Banane amère" (Bitter Banana in English) is from a huge multi-trunk
seedling tree that was growing on my property when I bought it in 1982.
This tree is about 50 feet high and its lowest branches are still too high
to pick even with a ladder! So I pick the apples on the ground when they
fall, usually by end of September or beginning of October. This apple is
unedible, it is extremely bitter with a banana aroma. It could be
classified as a full bittersweet. Since 1994, juice density has ranged
between 1.055 and 1.062, with acidity between 0.15% and 0.35%. Those
numbers are comparable to those I have obtained from the Yarlington Mill
apple, which, of the apples that I grow, is the most similar.
Banane amère is suitable in late season blends, mostly with table apples
that have a lot of acidity and no bitterness. It adds a lot of body and
tannin to the cider and should not be used in a ratio exceeding 25% of the
blend. The apples normally reach 2.5 inches across and are mostly green
with a bit of pale red. The juice yield is not very good and the juice
obtained is very thick and very dark brown. Some years it gets scab fairly
badly, but most years it is almost clean of it.
"Bilodeau" is a crab apple that I obtained from Mr. Claude Bilodeau. He got
it from a nursery as a tagging error as this tree was supposed to be of
another variety. I have never been able to know if it is a named variety
and to identify it. It mostly looks like the Robin crab, but it has some
notable differences. This apple ripens with the Douce Charlevoisienne and I
usually harvest and press them together. I started using it in 1996, and
since then, the juice obtained has had a S.G. ranging from 1.066 to 1.073,
with titrable acidity between 0.8% and 1% (which is very reasonable for a
crab). It also has a noticeable amount of tannin. Actually, this apple
makes a perfect blend with Douce Charlevoisienne as both apples complement
each other very well, Bilodeau bringing the sugar while Douce
Charlevoisienne mellows the acidity and adds its mild bitterness. The cider
that I presented last December at the GLOWS competition was mostly made
from this blend - it earned a bronze medal.
Bilodeau is a small apple, usually 1-3/4 inch across. It is very beautiful,
bright yellow covered with a nice red, sometimes with a little russet. It
never gets any scab, but the curculios seem to go for them and I sometimes
have to accept small crops. It's other drawback is that it is a favorite of
all the family and some years there is not much left for the cider! The
juice yield is good and the tree is hardy and vigorous.
I have posted some pictures of these apples - they may be seen at:
http://picasaweb.google.com/cjoliprsf/ExclusiveCiderApples
and, for those interested, there are a few other albums, including some
pictures of the orchard, at:
http://picasaweb.google.com/cjoliprsf
In conclusion, I think these 3 apples are interesting alternatives to the
use of European cider apples which may not adapt well in some locations,
mostly the colder locations with short summer. If some of the readers of
this digest are interested in testing them I can send some grafting wood
this spring. Note that I have no idea on how many of you will respond to
this and I have limited amount of wood. So, I will figure things when I get
a feedback... You may contact me directly at:
cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca
Claude Jolicoeur
Quebec
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End of Cider Digest #1445
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