Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Cider Digest #1431
Subject: Cider Digest #1431, 10 January 2008
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1431 10 January 2008
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
French Cider ("Howard, John")
red fleshed apples (Jack O Feil)
Re: Fermentation speed (Claude Jolicoeur)
Re: Fermentation speed ("Stuart Grant")
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the
message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them.
Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: French Cider
From: "Howard, John" <jhoward@beckerfrondorf.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 16:42:14 -0500
I asked a farmer in Normandy who sold cider out of his barn what he did
differently for his "Cidre Sec" vs his "Cidre Doux". He said he opens a
bottle, drinks it, and decides which label to put on. His stock of Sec
increased over the summer despite brisk sales to Parisians flocking to
the shore. ;-)
John Howard
------------------------------
Subject: red fleshed apples
From: Jack O Feil <feilorchards@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 15:15:24 -0800
For those looking for red fleshed apples, there is a crab apple called
Winter Red Flesh (Shasa X Red Flesh), small with very intense dark red
skin and flesh. I've used it for Apple Jelly, very attractive. When I get
enough production I will make a small batch to see how it turns out and
post here.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Fermentation speed
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 23:10:44 -0500
In Cider Digest #1430, 4 January 2008
>Subject: Fermentation speed
>From: con.traas@theapplefarm.com
>Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2008 05:03:02 -0800 (PST)
Con, thanks for your input.
You wrote :
>You then suggested that changing N levels in the fruit might be a factor.
>While I am reluctant to ascribe any change in fermentation speed to
>factors other than temperature and yeast load,
I would tend to agree with you when there is sufficient nutrients to
sustain yeast activity, but if the juice has very low level of Nitrogen and
other yeast nutrients, the fermentation will be very slow, whatever the
temperature, because the yeast population will have difficulty to build
itself and be active.
You wrote:
> I can at least confirm that
>in tests that I conducted over 36 weeks storage of apples, that the
>Nitrogen levels in fruits changed only as a result of water loss from the
>fruit, and therefore increased marginally over the period. I am afraid
>that you need to look elsewhere for an explanation.
This is interesting information. However, knowing that you are a competent
commercial apple grower, I am sure you have optimum storage facilities,
probably with controlled atmosphere. My storage is far from that! I simply
leave my apples in my unheated orchard house while I am absent - storage
temperature in fall usually swings between 20 and 10 C, which is far from
ideal. For example, the Cortland apple which normally is a good apple for
long term storage in Quebec usually starts to get overripe by end of
November. And when I arrive at the orchard house for a pressing weekend,
the smell is very strong in the house. Obviously, there are some volatile
components that escape from the apples as they ripen. So my question really
is: what are those volatile components and could they have an influence on
fermentation speed?
Claude Jolicoeur
Quebec
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Fermentation speed
From: "Stuart Grant" <stuart.grant1@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 11:23:23 +1100
Hi all,
In CD 1429, Claude suggested a correlation between length of storage (before
pressing) and fermentation speed. I have a slightly different case which
might nevertheless lend support to your suggestion, Claude. It is to do with
when the apples are picked - or how long they are stored on the tree, if you
like.
Every year, I source my apples from the local university orchards - the
students grow them but don't pick or eat them... I'm only too happy to
assist! The apples are all Sturmers (aka Sturmer Pippin), a very
late-bearing, acidic, aromatic dessert/cooking apple. I find that it makes a
nice semi-dry cider... although I've never had access to other varieties to
compare! The Sturmer hangs on the tree for a long time and so I can pick
them any time between April (after a sunny Summer) and July (Southern
Hemisphere), depending on when I get around to it. Due to access
restrictions, I can really only go there once a season.
The last four years I have picked the apples on the 20th April, 1st June,
20th June and 13th July, respectively. This wasn't deliberate (!), but makes
for interesting (if anecdotal) observations. My procedure has been to add
sulfite to 50ppm, calcium chloride to 400ppm, and PME keeving enzyme to the
recommended dosage. Despite this, I haven't ever managed to keeve a batch!
This is most likely because I am unable to macerate the pulp with the enzyme
(because it's pressed by a commercial company for me). I only mention this
because I know that adding CaCl2 essentially gives the yeast more nutrients
which may make fermentation faster. I don't add yeast but let the cider
ferment naturally.
My observations are this: that the earlier picked batches have tended to
ferment more strongly (which for me is undesirable because I would dearly
like to arrest fermentation and bottle semi-dry). HOWEVER, picking the
apples later has tended to mean that other bacteria (esp. acetic-) can be a
problem. I'm not sure if this is simply (as Claude suggests) that
stored/late-picked apples have a lower level on nutrients - meaning that
yeasts struggle to predominate - OR if the late-picked apples develop a
higher level on spoilage bacteria while they are waiting to be
picked/pressed. Probably both. I do know from experience that it's a good
idea to add more SO2 to late-picked batches to mitigate the risk of making
vinegar. This will slow down fermentation even more, of course.
As I said, these are anecdotal but hopefully useful observations.
Cheers,
Stuart Grant,
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1431
*************************
