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Cider Digest #1468
Subject: Cider Digest #1468, 30 September 2008
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1468 30 September 2008
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Yeasts ("John B. Biggins")
Vitamin C. ("Mark Johnson")
Re: Is It a Keeve? ("Gary Awdey")
Cider Production Questions (Andrew Lea)
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Subject: Yeasts
From: "John B. Biggins" <jbbiggins@comcast.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 12:43:01 -0400
My cider fermentations have been the offshoot of my microbiological
expertise. I lack the resources to operate my own mill/press, so I
have been using straight "sweet" juice from a local orchard that
provides year-round fresh juice (SE Penn Amish country) & have been
pitching single strains in 1/2 gal batches (beer, wine, cider, Brett
strains).
Just curious if anyone else has tried similar pursuits as well. The
results are quite interesting ~ i.e. the yeast being the only
variable in final product.
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Subject: Vitamin C.
From: "Mark Johnson" <friendlypool@astound.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 10:19:57 -0700
This may be an ignorant question, and it may have been answered in a digest
more than 3 years ago, but I have not seen any mentions of my question.
Is the vitamin C found in Apples destroyed in the process of making cider?
I understand that pasteurization can destroy Vitamins. So as long as the
temperature stays below about 85 degrees F, which I consider high for my
cider making, is the vitamin C destroyed? Also is there an increase or
decrease in B vitamins? I am not a biochemist; Organic Chemistry was my
demise in college. What other vitamins and minerals might be expected to be
found in a natural made cider?
Curiously,
Mark "Ciderman" Johnson
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Subject: Re: Is It a Keeve?
From: "Gary Awdey" <gawdey@att.net>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:07:52 -0400
It's not surprising that there would be disagreement in CD#1467 about
whether or not Kevin's photos represent a keeve. I believe the source of
disagreement lies in the geometry of the vessel shown
(http://www1.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=244105135/a=144753175_14475
3175/t_=144753175 for the convenience of anyone who wants a second look).
The photos do show the sort of precipitation of gel that occurs in a keeve.
Not every keeve shows exactly the same appearance in the early stages but
Kevin's photos show a mass with the lobed appearance that is characteristic
of many keeves.
Unfortunately there is no open head space in the carboy. This is an
important requirement for a successful keeve. The container used for a
keeve should have vertical walls and not be filled to the shoulder. This
would provide room for the gel to collect at the top. The gel does expand
at first, due to entrapment of the gas bubbles that lift it. Over time with
the buoyancy of gas bubbles pushing upward and the force of gravity pushing
downward most of the juice is forced out of the sludge-like gel, compacting
it to something a good deal more solid, almost crusty. That's if
fermentation doesn't get too wild before then. Too many rising gas bubbles
can agitate the contents of the container and break apart the gel. It can
also cause the gel to turn into a foam (as Bill's posting suggests) which
will be lighter in color, almost white, a sign of a keeve that failed.
Kevin's photos do not show it at that stage, however. I know from the
trial-and-error of my own early keeving trials that gas bubbles traveling
along the inner surface of the shoulder of an overfilled carboy will create
currents in the vessel. From directly below the neck of the carboy the
current is straight down, then outward along the bottom and back up to the
top along the sides. Gel chunks are broken away and carried from the top
back down into other parts of the container. In that case there would be
chunks of gel constantly falling and rising inside the container until the
agitation beaks them apart into tiny chunk. At that stage the juice would
also return to the original level of cloudiness and fermentation would be
expected to be quite vigorous. That is because the disturbed gel provides
support to which reproducing yeast cells can become attached, holding more
yeast in suspension and greatly accelerating the overall rate of
fermentation. Once the gel is clarified, the yeast tends to settle to the
bottom of the vessel more easily and fermentation is slower.
If a keeve starts to form spontaneously in a completely filled carboy and
you want to support it, your best bet is to siphon off some of the clearest
juice possible from the bottom and hold it in a separate container until
after the keeve. Sometimes the juice could be divided between two carboys
and both could be keeved, depending on how much unprecipitated pectin
remains in both containers, and how much dissolved calcium is present.
After the gel compacts into a brown cap and the clear juice is siphoned off
from below it, the remainder of the original juice could be added back.
Alternatively the keeved juice could be used to fill a smaller carboy (a
six-gallon carboy filled to just below the shoulder works well for keeving
and racking to a five-gallon carboy if full compaction is achieved).
Gary Awdey
Eden, NY
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Production Questions
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@HarpHill.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 12:44:01 +0100
Sebastian wrote:
> what kind of quantity can we expect per ton of apples?
Yields are typically 75%. (65 - 85 depending on mill and press
efficiency). So 750 litres per tonne.
> We do not fully understand the dosage rate of the thiamine and
> ammonium sulphate. It reads 0.2 mg per litre of thiamine and up to 300
> mg of ammonium salt per litre. What are the 0.2 mg and the 300mg. Is
> this another chemical as it reads as if there is something being added
> to a litre of thiamine and ammonium sulphate.
It's 0.2 mg of thiamine and 300 mg of ammonium salt per litre of juice.
Sorry if this is unclear. You can use any proprietary yeast nutrient /
vitamin preparation to do this and follow the directions given on the
packet or data sheet.
> what size barrels should we use we are crushing 5 ton and have the
> option of 200 litre 500 litre or a 1000?
Choice is yours, depending on the logistics of your operation. You are
making 3750 litres so probably 4 * 1000 litres or 3* 1000 plus 1*750 is
good.
> What is the best chemicals to use for sterilising the barrels ( we can
> not source Chempro)
Any proprietary non-foaming winemakers sterilant is fine. If using
*wooden* barrels you may prefer just to sweeten with SO2, in case it's
difficult to remove the sterilant from the wood. Follow local winemaking
practice.
> We are sourcing pectolytic enzyme out here so we need to know the
> levels to add as they wont come with instructions.
They all come at different strengths so it's impossible to advise. Read
the data sheet that comes with the enzyme. Any branded enzyme worth
buying will have a data sheet.
> I have studied wine and business at plumpton college Sussex and have
> experience making wine.
Then cidermaking should come easily to you. It's almost the same but
with apples rather than grapes.
Andrew
www.cider.org.uk
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End of Cider Digest #1468
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