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Cider Digest #1477
Subject: Cider Digest #1477, 23 November 2008
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1477 23 November 2008
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
new books (yes, plural) (Dick Dunn)
Andrew Lea's new book ("Katie Algeo")
Response about Crispin Cider (Lesley Heron)
Cider kits (Bill Rhyne)
Instant cider (Claude Jolicoeur)
Re: Cider Digest #1476, 17 November 2008 (Roy Bailey)
Forthcoming book from Andrew Lea (Andrew Lea)
Grinders (deva maas)
Cider on the BBC (Andrew Lea)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: new books (yes, plural)
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 19:56:22 -0700
Alan Yelvington mentioned that Andrew Lea has a book coming out. Yes, and
it's good...and it's a lot more than just what's on his ever-helpful web
site.
Note also that Ben Watson has the second edition of his _Cider,_Hard_&_Sweet_
just out. (Haven't got mine yet.) I wish someone would write a review of
it...the first edition was very good, so I have high hopes.
Finally, there's a book from James Crowden (author of the earlier _Cider_-_
_The_Forgotten_Miracle_) called _Ciderland_, out in the UK now but I haven't
found it stateside yet. However, I've seen some bits about it, and it, too,
is promising. Particularly seems to have a lot of photos.
Rather a feast of the printed word for cidernauts this autumn, to prop up
the feet and read while the cider is quietly fermenting and the trees are
dormant and the snow flies outside. (No slight intended to those down
under!)
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Andrew Lea's new book
From: "Katie Algeo" <katie.algeo@wku.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 21:44:44 -0600
Thanks for the notice about Andrew Lea's new book on cider making!
After viewing the Amazon UK page in the CD notice, I went to the
American version of Amazon, where I would place an order, and noticed
that the book offered there has a different cover and quite a different
product description.
UK product description:
Once a local craft shared by the whole village, cider making has, until
recently, been largely eclipsed by the big brand names. However, the
craft of small-scale cider production is once more making a come back
with more land going into cider apple production now than at any time
in the past 20 years.In this book, Andrew Lee discusses the history of
English cider making as well as the craft itself. He guides the reader
through the apples, the science and the processes as well as sales and
marketing. He also includes sections on apple juice and vinegar and a
recipe section making this book the essential reference for anyone
wanting to discover the delights of small-scale cider making for profit
or pleasure.
About the Author
Andrew Lee owns a small commercially run orchard in Oxfordshire. He has
an active website and has written various papers on the subject
US production description:
This book is for anyone who wants to grow and to make good cider or
even simple apple juice. Whether you have a back garden with a couple
of apple trees, several acres of orchard deep in the countryside, or
you're just 'getting apples from friends and neighbors every autumn,
this book is for you. Here you can learn about the equipment you need,
the techniques to use and just how they work as they do. You'll also
learn what to do when things go wrong, and how to put them right!
Packed with a wealth of practical experience and understanding, "Craft
Cidermaking" is for beginners and old hands alike
Are these the same book??? I know which version sounds more
interesting, and it's not the one on the US web site.
Thanks for any insight that can be provided.
Katie
------------------------------
Subject: Response about Crispin Cider
From: Lesley Heron <lheron@briteblueco.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 11:28:09 -0600
We welcome Dick's comments regrading our new Crispin hard apple cider,
and in response and the opportunity for interesting dialogue,and the
common challenge of getting more Americans to embrace "hard" apple
cider, this is what we have to say.
Hard Cider in the US has perhaps been inhibited from entering the
mainstream consumer's beverage portfolio through an insular, perhaps
traditional approach to marketing and positioning. Certainly, in the
US we can compare hard cider at +/-1% the size of the total beer
market Vs +/- 10% in the UK & Ireland.
Why is Crispin Super-Premium? Crispin is made in a classical
"Normandy" style, and as per all hard cider, quality begins with the
highest quality apple wine. Crispin uses naturally fermented apple
wine from apple juice and not from concentrate as per some other
manufacturers. Our belief is that apple juice concentrate ferments
"hot" due to high residual sugars. We believe that fermented juice is
smoother and less coarse with more apple flavor and "nose" than
fermented apple juice concentrate (which is obviously cheaper).
We also believe that our classic smoothing (sweetening) with apple
juice concentrate versus sugar (which is cheaper) gives a longer,
fuller apple bouquet and a longer smoother taste finish on the palate.
We do not add sorbate or benzoate preservatives, or use added
colorants (to make us look like a beer).
Interestingly Dick's comment Vs Michelob Vs Sierra Nevada - we make no
apologies for not being a traditional "craft beer" style cider, we do
believe that we are world's apart from the US domestic premium beers
like Michelob. And we are actually made in the Sierra foothills - if
that helps.
We are not made from the Crispin/Mutsu apple - actually the blend is
typically of 5 different apple varietals, and this blend varies
depending on the time of season. We use a blend as our experience
shows that a single varietal juice results in a thin cider with
limited body. We do add natural apple flavor to help maintain a
consistent flavor over seasons and the geographic manufacturing
dispersion (we would look to multiple bottling locations to help
minimize freight costs).
We are a hard apple cider as legally defined. Importantly we do not
want to be a wine cooler or a flavored malt beverage - hence our
reference. This is important information for the average consumer -
perhaps not for the cider aficionado or maker.
The Cider Over Ice serving ritual has not entered the US lexicon - and
in our opinion is well suited to the US where consumption is preferred
cold and often over ice for many, many beverages. It has also become
the preferred cider serving ritual not only in the UK & Ireland (and
Magner's business issues relate more to it's traditional marketing
positioning and very much increased competition from other ciders like
UK Bulmer's, Strongbow and such - all promoting cider consumption over
ice) but across the continent, particularly Spain & Germany. It is not
a fad but the trend driving cider growth across Europe. We will let
consumers make their choice, and although early doors, it seems to be
very much enjoyed, and importantly, for all of us, is making people
reconsider hard cider (which they often associate as too sweet &
sticky on the palate, and some even mimic a heart-burn type movement
to their chests!) as a delicious beverage option.
We mean no disrespect to the Irish. But we think the traditional
marketing of hard cider does nothing to help bring new consumers to
the category. We had no idea that wet labradors and smoky pipes added
flavor to Magner's. For the record - Crispin is delicious, Crisp and
Fresh. A delicious apple nose and finish.
Oh yes - we called it Crispin because we thought it was cool, and
sounded just like a great cider. Saint Crispin's Day is on the 25
October. The new patron saint of ciders (and cobblers).
We hope this helps. The more dialogue relative to helping cider re-
enter the mainstream for the first time since John Adams is helpful
and positive. We look forward to more,
------------------------------
Subject: Cider kits
From: Bill Rhyne <bill_rhyne@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 11:03:10 -0800 (PST)
Re: Tim Barrie's interest in a easy cider kit.
Here is the easiest way to make hard cider. Buy some fresh (not pasteurized
or heat treated) apple juice in gallon jars. Put it in your refridgerator
and leave it there. If the temperature not too cold in the refridgerator,
the natural yeasts in the juice will start fermenting but slowly. Slow,
cool fermentation retains more flavor. If you can't wait, do it at room
temperature by putting the juice in a safe room. We got this idea from the
folks at the apple processing plant in our area. They would do this each
season for a little fun. They said that they would sample periodically
until it got to the right taste of fermented juice with some residual
sweetness and some fizz. Then, they would drink it. (Cost of the kit:
$4 for a gallon of juice.)
If you can't get fresh juice, buy the pasteurized or heat treated stuff in
gallon jars and add some wine yeast. We (Rhyne Cyder) liked champagne
yeast as we were trying to make that style of cider. We tried lager
and ale yeasts by suggestion from others but we did not like the final
taste. Martinelli's Apple Juice contains a high percentage of Newtown
Pippins (and I think Macintosh) juice, as they grow those varieties in
Watsonville area. We fermented a gallon or two of their juice with a wine
yeast and it tasted nice. The cost of the kit: $4 per gallon for juice,
and some yeast (I can't remember the yeast cost but it was minimal.)
Making cider is easy. Keep it simple. Making great cider is not so easy.
It all starts with great fruit though.
Best wishes to all of you cider enthusiasts!
Bill Rhyne
(formerly of Rhyne Cyder;
now teaching management at the University of California at Davis MBA Program)
------------------------------
Subject: Instant cider
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 00:23:48 -0500
In Cider Digest #1476, 17 November 2008
>Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1475, 12 November 2008
>From: "Tim Barrie" <tim_barrie@msn.com>
>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 13:47:26 -0700
>
>Hey Claude Jolicoeur, I appreciate your feedback. I know I have upset a few
>people with the '10 minute Hard Cider' recipe.
>
>I suspect that if I were to suggest that they start with "Follow 4 easy
>steps and get a great cider in 2 years!", that may not kick start them. As
>good as the result might (or might not) be....
>
>What I really need is a few good examples of baby steps they can take.
>Videos, detailed descriptions, interesting learnings etc. Easy ways to get
>started and get a reasonable result in a fairly short period of time.
Tim,
There is something I have difficulty to understand there... Imagine that
you are in France, in the Bourgogne area, talking with a vigneron that does
a great wine that you have just tasted, something like a Gevrey Chambertin
1984 for example... Then you tell him "This is great wine! Please tell me
how I can make such a great wine in 2 weeks" What do you think the answer
would be?
I am quite sure you wouldn't even ask the question, because red wine has a
sort of aura, or a reputation and everyone knows that a great wine doesn't
make itself in 2 weeks. Well, actually, the same applies to apples and cider.
But I understand your impatience and your enthousiasm. So let's review the
alternatives to my 2-year recipe...
1- kits: What you get is a can of apple juice concentrate. The apples will
most likely have been grown in China, with lots of chemicals. Then the
juice is boiled until the desired concentration and canned. You add water
and sugar and ferment it with lots of yeast nutrients so the fermentation
goes blazing fast. What you get after 2 weeks, I would call it fermented
apple juice from concentrate - I wouldn't call it cider. Just like a red
wine made from concentrate in 2 weeks, if you are like me and enjoy good
wine, you don't call that kit wine a true wine.
The main problem with this approach is that the produce you will get might
put you off and you will not want to persist in making or drinking cider.
2- A better alternative is to find an orchard near you where you can buy
fresh juice. Preferably unpasterised, but this is harder. You might not be
able to control the apple blend, but still, you will have a better start.
And if you want it to ferment rapidly, you may add a bit of yeast
nutrients. But most likely this will not be necessary as commercially grown
apples contain a lot of nitrogen from fertilisation that act as yeast
nutrient. If you start now, you could probably get a palatable cider by
February or March, and it would keep improving as it would mature in the
bottles for a few months.
3- An even better alternative (but it is getting a bit late this year for
this) is to search old abandoned orchards where you could pick about 3
bushells of scabby and undersized apples. Such apples contain much less
nitrogen from fertilisation and will ferment more slowly. They will also
contain more sugar and flavor, and most likely produce a much better cider
that will take more time to mature. But you will need to find a way to
juice those apples.
4- And finally, you may start to plant apples trees - and in 20 years, it
might be you that will say to others they have to be patient to get really
good cider.
Claude
P.S. I make my first batch of cider in fall 1988 - exactly 20 years ago
now. I had my orchard since 1983, but at the time, I thought cider was a
horrible drink! (I had been put off in the 70's by some really awful
commercial cider made in Quebec at the time). Some friends convinced me to
try to make cider. We went to press the apples at an orchard the friends
knew and I enjoyed the cider so much that, for fall 1989, I had my own
brand new press to juice my apples.
P.P.S. Quebec commercial cider has improved incredibly since the 70's.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1476, 17 November 2008
From: Roy Bailey <enquiries@lambournvalleycider.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:50:44 +0000
>From: Sketchpub@aol.com
>Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 23:38:42 EST
>
>Dear Cider Digest:
>I tried something a bit different this year with my cider fermentation: I
>made sure that I stirred the fermenting juice everyday to get more
>oxygen into the fermenting juice.
It is a good idea to get oxygen into the juice early on to encourage
aerobic fermentation, and this is normally achieved by the action of
pouring or pumping the juice into the fermentation vessel. Once the
fermentation has started it is better to leave well alone. Stirring
every day could introduce airborne bacteria into the juice.
>My ciders all took off much earlier than in the past.
>In the past, I have always had sluggish fermentations and I assumed that it
>was caused by the cool (53 F) temperatures in my winery.
I wouldn't say that 53 F is particularly cool for cider fermentation. In
the UK cider traditionally ferments slowly in unheated conditions
through the cold winter - and the slower the better. A fast fermentation
can drive off desirable flavours. I once had a 50 gallon batch of cider
that had just started fermenting freeze on the surface during a very
cold spell. Once things had warmed up again it carried on fermenting
nice and slowly. After all, what's the rush?
>I would then move the
> plastic barrels into the my labeling room which I kept heated and that
>would seem to help.......
Not a good idea!
>but I think more important at the initial stage of
>fermentation, is getting oxygen to the yeast.
Initially, yes, as I said above.
>I also am no longer freaked out by the chappeau on the top and dig in with
>my wooden spoon and break it up in the process of stirring it and it
>disappears.
>
Again, not a good idea. The chapeau brun is pectin coming out of
solution, and its absence will help the cider ferment more slowly. This
improves flavour and enables you to stop the fermentation before
complete dryness is achieved, if you wish. The chapeau should be skimmed
off and discarded, and the juice racked off the similar deposit which
will have sunk to the bottom of the vessel.
I am sure that Andrew Lea will provide further scientific information
about the chapeau brun, but you might like to look at the piece on
'keeving' on my website at <www.lambournvalleycider.co.uk/ferment.htm>.
With respect, you appear to be fiddling around unnecessarily with the
fermenting juice. Leave it to Nature!
Roy.
- --
Roy Bailey - Proprietor
The Lambourn Valley Cider Company
(Real cider from the Royal County)
<www.lambournvalleycider.co.uk>
------------------------------
Subject: Forthcoming book from Andrew Lea
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@HarpHill.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:29:27 +0000
Alan wrote:
> Andrew has a book coming out! (joy joy).
>
> Anyway, no harm giving Andrew a plug.
That's kind of you, I'm sure! I should just explain perhaps that the
book is a re-working and expansion of the Science of Cidermaking
articles on my website. So, many of the words are the same, because I
find it difficult to think of new ones! See
http://www.cider.org.uk/book.html
One word of warning. There are no 'baby step' instructions. It does not
give you a six point plan for making the simplest quickest cider ever.
It assumes the cider making process starts with apples or juice in
autumn and is not completed till spring or summer. It talks about
options, possibilities, variants and choices. It contains no recipes. It
is for people who can think for themselves, work on their own
initiative, and are prepared to take the time and trouble to explore the
many different ways of making an individual craft product.
Andrew Lea
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Grinders
From: deva maas <devamaas@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2008 12:33:09 -0800
Alan,
I have some experience with homemade grinders that may help you. I used
a garbage disposer for two seasons and think I found a better method.
My major complaints with the garbage disposer was first each apple needed
to be loaded seperatly and often pushed into the grinder, and second
the model I bought often shut off due to overheating and took at least 20
minuets to cool down before you could turn it on again. For the past three
years I have used a wood chipper shredder which I bought used for $300,
took it all apart and coated all gringer parts with food grade enamel.
This year I grinded approximately 15 bushels in probably 25 minuets. I was
a little skeptical about the cider after the first grinding as some chips
of the enamel had flaked off, but as the cider aged there were no signs of
oxidation from iron contact. The ciders from this grinder I have to say
turned out well. The pulp I think is superior to the garbage disposer
as you have more small chunks, rather than sloppy applesause. I have
researched small commercial electric grinders and for $300, or evan $700
I think you are getting a real good apple grinder with a wood chipper.
I would feel comfortable grinding up to 100 bushels with this setup.
My garbage disposer experience, ( and maybe I bought the wrong model)
was not real positive. Good luck, and if you or anyone would like to know
specifics of the model and horespower of my grinder I'd be happy to share,
right now I don't remember.
Thanks, Eric Shatt - Finger Lakes NY
------------------------------
Subject: Cider on the BBC
From: Andrew Lea <andrew@HarpHill.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 17:02:56 +0000
There was an interesting radio programme on Cider broadcast by the BBC
recently. Much of it was taken up by James Crowden on the back of his
new book "Ciderland", but there was also a good chunk devoted to the
contentious but usually concealed issue of juice content in commercial
ciders.
It can be accessed online at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/foodprogramme_20081109.shtml
As far as I know people in any country can listen to it, from the
"Listen to this programme in full" button, so long as they have
RealPlayer installed.
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford, UK
www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1477
*************************
