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Cider Digest #1426
Subject: Cider Digest #1426, 11 December 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1426 11 December 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Oak (Jack O Feil)
Stuck Cider ("Rich Anderson")
A stuck fermentation? (Andrew Lea)
Help needed to "unstick" a stuck fermentation (Donald Davenport)
"stuck" fermentation (doug)
Re: Help needed to "unstick" a stuck fermentation (Claude Jolicoeur)
Cider Class (from: stirring the pot) (Shawn Carney)
Redfleshed apple cider ("Siloam Orchards")
cider economics? (Dick Dunn)
2007 GLOWS Results ("Jeff Carlson")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Oak
From: Jack O Feil <feilorchards@juno.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 11:58:39 -0800
Before I try them, what does the use of oak barrels or oak chips do for
cider, anything?
------------------------------
Subject: Stuck Cider
From: "Rich Anderson" <rhanderson@centurytel.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 12:52:32 -0800
Try hydrating another batch of yeast @ 100-120 F. The hydrated yeast
solution should be cooled gradually to within 10 degrees of the juice that
it is being added to. You can do this by slowly adding some juice so that
the hydrated yeast is not "shocked" by pouring it into a much cooler
solution. You did not mention what temperature the juice is, but I would say
anywhere between 45 & 60 F is fine. I like the temperature on the lower side
but it can depend on the yeast you are using.
------------------------------
Subject: A stuck fermentation?
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 21:22:30 +0000
George Katz wrote:
> So, what does this ultra low level of activity mean? Could the cider
> be fermenting despite the absence of lots of visible activity in the
> carboy, since the yeast seems alive and the carboy contents seem to
> be clearing?
Have you measured the current SG? You told us it started at 1.068. What
is it now? That is the true measure, more so than the visual appearance.
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Help needed to "unstick" a stuck fermentation
From: Donald Davenport <djdavenport@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 15:12:22 -0700
I probably know just enough to get it wrong, since I haven't been at
this too many years, but my advice, like the tuition on the CD, is
very attractively priced.
I think I'd start with variables.
It seems to me that if you've got one carboy actively fermenting and
the other one not, even though they aren't "identical" in
composition, they are probably similar enough to assume that you have
a fermentable must in both. Plenty of fermentable sugar. No
chemical preservatives, etc.
You mention you also treated them the same in terms of sulfiting them
and are using the same yeast in both. You didn't specifically
mention it (unless I missed it) but I'm assuming both carboys are
located near enough to each other that there isn't a big temperature
difference between them.
So what could be making the difference? Here are a couple ideas.
You said both carboys received the same amount of sulfite. Did the
Camden tabs come from the same source? All tabs are not created
equal. Some, manufactured by a Canadian company are, in fact, triple
strength. It's not until you read some very fine print that you
realize that one tab produces 150 ppm, not the expected 50 ppm. So
if you use that product and simply go by the recommended number of
tabs per the chart, you are really creating a pretty sulfurous soup.
I learned the hard way when one batch took nearly 3 weeks to finally
get going due to an inadvertent triple dose. So, I'd check that.
It is not unheard of to have a bad packet of yeast. Even ones that
are still well within their "use by" date. A friend had a carboy he
couldn't get to fire. After ten days he pitched another packet of
the same yeast (EC-1118 as a matter of fact) and 24 hours later--
boom--he was scraping mousse off the walls. Did the retailer store
it in a hot warehouse? Did the UPS truck break down in Death Valley?
I think it's worth it to always make a yeast starter. It "proves"
the yeast and the must. If, when you add it to the carboy, things
don't start up like they should, you'll know it's not a problem with
the yeast or with the must. In the time it takes for the SO2 to
dissipate before you'd normally pitch the yeast anyway--24 hours or
so--the yeast starter has plenty of time to get going and in a very
obvious way. You'll know if you've got healthy yeast.
So, just a few thoughts.
Donald Davenport
Santa Fe, NM
------------------------------
Subject: "stuck" fermentation
From: doug <mporch@frontiernet.net>
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2007 18:18:24 -0500
to george and deb katz concerning a possible stuck fermentation- as
long as it's not too cold, like below 45 degrees, i wouldn't worry
yet. i've had primary ferments boil the airlock off for weeks and
weeks, but other times gently glug slowly without the fireworks. my
cider room is in the 40's most of the time and the primary is slow and
steady. when i work in there i SWEAR the cadence picks up a little, as
if the cider is saying hello(let me pretend). don't get too nervous.
doug fincke annandale-on hudson, ny
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Help needed to "unstick" a stuck fermentation
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 16:51:08 -0500
In Cider Digest #1425, 8 December 2007
George Katz wrote
>Subject: Help needed to "unstick" a stuck fermentation
>From: "George Katz" <geodeb@bigplanet.com>
>Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 20:49:35 -0500
>
> To see if the yeast was actually still alive in the first carboy and get
>things moving, we added yeast energizer per package instructions (1/2
>teaspoon per gallon) yesterday......
George,
A few things about your cider:
First, but this is unrelated to the fact the fermentation doesn't start,
you seem to start your cider directly in the glass carboy, while most of us
use a large plastic bucket for starting and we rack in a glass carboy once
fermentation has calmed down. This avoids the mess on the floor, insures
the carboy is filled to the top and helps to slow the fermentation.
Second, you should take a SG reading to evaluate how slow it is going. It
might be going slowly or not going at all - there is a definite difference
between those 2 ways.
Third, you said in your post that you had added the yeast nutrient the day
before you wrote your message to the Digest. Keep in mind that some time is
needed (a few days at least, depending on temperature) for the yeast
population to build-up before you actually see a difference in fermentation
speed.
Fourth, you don't say anything about the temperature. If temperature is in
the 60-65 F range, the yeast population will develop much more rapidly than
if it is colder.
Claude
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Class (from: stirring the pot)
From: Shawn Carney <shawn@blossomwoodcidery.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 17:06:02 -0500
"Thanks esp. to Josh Klatt. As a Peter
Mitchell grad myself, welcome to the club. I am sure you are now
chuckling at many a cidermaker's secrets."
If Josh is willing to share his thoughts: I wouldn't mind hearing if his
views on cider making have changed after taking the class.
Shawn Carney
Cedaredge, CO
------------------------------
Subject: Redfleshed apple cider
From: "Siloam Orchards" <mail@siloamorchards.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 12:36:28 -0500
Wondering if anyone has experience in producing a red or rose cider from
redfleshed apples. I have read that the color turns an unsightly brown
in the bottle.
Eric Hambly, Siloam Orchards, Uxbridge Ontario
------------------------------
Subject: cider economics?
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 21:46:00 -0700
A couple digests back, Russell Holmberg brought up some interesting
points...skipping down in his posting (from "stirring the pot"), he wrote:
> As a fourth generation commercial apple grower and cidermaker in New England,
> it is my humble opinion that a producer such as harpoon can make perfectly
> respectable six-pack cider using primarly culinary apples. Indeed, the
> economics of a six pack demand low cost ingredients. It is a hard sell
> to convince me or my colleges to remove or renovate productive blocks of
> trees into "cider" apples when the current market for juice apples is only
> paying five cents a pound. Apple orchards do not stay in business these
> days growing ingredients for other businesses. They stay in business by
> producing and selling the cider themselves(Value-added products)...
OK, one part of this makes good sense to me: You don't produce raw-ingredient
apples at a loss and sell to other folks who do the value-added part to make
money; you add the value at your place (at the orchard). You've got to do
that to survive; unfortunately not all the orchardists keyed into this in
time. So I agree with this premise.
But the part I don't understand is why you wouldn't convert to cider
apples--not "instead of" value-added at the orchard, but "in addition to".
Here's my BoE analysis; could somebody please shoot this down? Russell
says juice apples get 5 cents a pound, and he's right that's a bad
proposition. BUT cider-variety juice apples are a different matter. Just
for example, Steve Wood (Farnum Hill/Poverty Lane) has sold cider fruit at
what works out to 50 cents/lb small quantity down to 25 cents/lb in larger
quantity, FOB his orchard, the past two years. That's 5-10x the ordinary
juice apple price. Moreover, it --appears-- (again, somebody check me!)
to carry through all the way to the retail shelf: "Six pack" ciders end
up at about a dollar a bottle, for 12 fl oz. Premium craft ciders end up
at $9-15 for 750 ml. Double the six-pack bottle price to account for the
difference in size; you're talking about $2 for two six-pack bottles
against the $9-15.
I don't know what I'm missing but it sure looks like the premium market is
the better idea for a small-scale producer...especially when you reflect
costs back into the analysis. That is, bottles, labels, and the like.
More than that, it seems like the six-pack market is one where quantity
rules, and that's a bad sign for the new/small entrant. What I mean is
first the bottle, label, distribution overhead as above. But it's more
than that...the six-pack majors don't feel any need to make a full-juice
cider. If you're using full juice, and they only use 30% juice (a common
number), how you gonna compete? You can't compete much on quality, because
that market is controlled almost entirely by price-point.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: 2007 GLOWS Results
From: "Jeff Carlson" <carlsonj@gvsu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 08:22:57 -0500
GLOWS 2007
The 3RD Annual Great Lakes Olde World Syder Pro-Am Competition is complete.
Results have been posted to the Michigan Beer Guide website at
www.michiganbeerguide.com.
The competition concluded last night with an award ceremony at host site
Schmohz Brewing Company in Grand Rapids, MI. About 65 people were in
attendance to applaud the award winners.
Over 140 entries were submitted in the two divisions, Commercial and
Noncommercial. In this unique event, every entry in the competition, be it
beer, mead or cider, must be made with apples and or pears.
Entries were submitted literally from coast to coast to include 14 states
and Canada. The judge panels were a combination of industry professionals,
Beer Judge Certification Program judges, noncommercial cider makers, and
media. Every effort is made to assure the highest and most strict standards
are employed to recognize the best products.
In the commercial division, five gold medals were awarded. In Common
(Traditional) Cider, Golds were awarded to Tulip Valley Vineyard & Orchard,
Salem OR and Aeppeltreow Winery in Burlington WI.
In English Cider a gold was awarded to Westcott Bay Cider in Friday Harbor, WA.
In other Specialty Cider & Perry Aeppeltreow Winery, Burlington, VT, earned
a gold.
And in the Pommeau category, a gold was awarded to Wandering Aengus
Ciderworks, Salem OR.
The five golds were further evaluated to determine the Best of Show, which
was presented to Tulip Valley Vineyard & Orchard, Salem OR for their
Traditional cider.
In the noncommercial division, eleven gold medals were awarded.
Gold Scott Janeczek, Milan, MI Cyser
Gold Jeff Carlson, Grand Rapids, MI Westside Cyser
Gold Mike Bossory, Manchester, MI Open Category Mead
Gold Jeff Carlson, Grand Rapids, MI Traditional Cider
Gold John Applegarth, Grand Rapids, MI Traditional Cider
Gold Jeff Carlson, Grand Rapids, MI English Cider
Gold Jeff Carlson, Grand Rapids, MI English Cider
Gold Scott Husted, Kalamazoo, MI French Cider
Gold Eric Fouch, Caledonia, MI Traditional Perry
Gold Eric Fouch, Caledonia, MI Fruit Cider (Mulberry)
Gold Eric Fouch, Caledonia, MI Pommeau
The best of show was a toss up between two entries, both Traditional Ciders.
The runner up was Jeff Carlson's English Cider. Jeff's disappointment was
short lived because the Best of Show was awarded to Jeff Carlson for his
Common Cider.
A complete list of the all the winners is available at
www.michiganbeerguide.com
The Great Lakes Olde World Syder Competition is partially funded by the
Michigan Apple Committee, with additional financial support from Scilianos
Market, Cascade Winery, and Wayne Chemical.
In kind sponsorship came from the Primetime Brewers, Schmohz Brewing Company,
Uncle John's Fruit House Winery, and the Michigan Beer Guide.
Plans are already underway for next year's Great Lakes Olde World Syder
Competition at a new time of year and larger venue.
The Great Lakes Olde World Syder Competition is organized by Rex Halfpenny.
For additional information or photos please contact him at mibeerguyd@aol.com
or 248-628-6584.
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1426
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