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Cider Digest #1419
Subject: Cider Digest #1419, 7 November 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1419 7 November 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Plastic Press racks needed (Ira Edwards)
wild yeasts - a bit more (Warwick Billings)
French cultivars in SE WI (Charles Mcgonegal)
Re: Freezing cider (Benjamin Watson)
Re: Wild Yeast (Benjamin Watson)
Freezing Cider ("Peter Johnson")
wild'n'crazy yeast (Dick Dunn)
Re: Pears and perry fact check (Dick Dunn)
Re: perry and fireblight (Charles Mcgonegal)
RE: Pears and perry fact check (Shawn Carney)
Imported cultivars. (Charles Mcgonegal)
Re: Cider Digest #1418, 5 November 2007 (Steury and Noel family)
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Subject: Plastic Press racks needed
From: Ira Edwards <ira_j_e@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2007 19:11:07 -0900
Hi all,
This year I burned my old wooden press racks that had seen me through 4 years
of juice making. They were just too hard to keep clean. So I went to a
local plastics house and bought some 1/2" HDPE cutting boards material.
I went andcut it into 15" squares and notched grooves on my table saw
with a dado blade such that the grooves were EXACTLY halfway through,
to allow juice to flow through. I cut vertical grooves on one side and
horizontal grooves on the other side to for am cross pattern.
Almost every plate cracked in more than one place along my cut marks. I got
the juice pressed out and all, but the plates are kind of useless at this
point and I need something better for next year (on top of the fact that
it was not cheap and I was hoping to get more than a year out of them...)
Any ideas on specific types of plastic to look for or order? would 3/4"
thick plates have made things any better?
Thanks!
Ira Edwards
Anchorage, Alaska=20
www.greatnorthernbrewers.org
------------------------------
Subject: wild yeasts - a bit more
From: Warwick Billings <tokolosh@penalvagold.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 18:08:04 +1030
Hi Digest
Re Andrew's comments on the species succession of wild yeasts, I have
heard, and it would seem plausible that the early fermenting non-
saccharomyces yeasts deplete thiamine in particular from the must.
This can result in slower/naturally sweeter ferments due to the
saccharomyces not having adequate thiamine.
Given that thiamine is quite a common yeast food in wineries in
Europe, this all seemed possible. Would be interested to hear
Andrew's view.
cheers
Warwick
www.loboapple.com
------------------------------
Subject: French cultivars in SE WI
From: Charles Mcgonegal <cpm@appletrue.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 07:34:03 -0600
We are zone 5 here, the orchard sitting on the NW aspect of a glacial
hill. A lot of clay at the top of the hill.
In general, my french collection has come to fruit much earlier than
the English. All on m27. First were the english sweet/sharps, then
most of the French, then english bitters. I've yet to get more than a
single Kingston black, while domaine, Michelin, muscadet deippe and
Binet blanc are going strong. Domaine sets heavier than golden del.
Frequin rouge is a boring bittersharp for me - but I'm prejudiced to
the bittersweets. Major came in early, and I really like the profile.
Argile Gris may as well be another sweet/sharp. Brown snout is tasty
here. La Bret is precocious - but only middlin for flavor.
As for growth habit, Deirdre, you're welcome to come over and look. We
just started training the cider orchard to something like central axe.
Heavy pruning job this spring- so the trees look a little woebegone.
On a different topic: Andrew, how would one go about measuring a
glucose:fructose ratio? I used to have an hplc set up with a diff. RI,
but the moblie phase was H2SO4. It resolved the sugars fine, but
would it leave the ratio alone? It inverted any sucrose added.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
Elegant Hard Cider and Orchard Wines
>>Sent from my iPhone<<
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Freezing cider
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 09:23:10 -0500
Josh Klatt asks about freezing cider for later topping-up of carboys,
especially after the first vigorous fermentation phase.
I routinely freeze at least 3-4 gallons of cider from our annual
pressing, mainly so that I have a cider on hand that is of the same
Brix/specific gravity and composition as my fermenting cider, for use
in topping up. But, in truth, I don't think that it's very important,
and in a pinch I would not hesitate to use any other good, balanced
orchard run sweet cider. The problem is, it becomes very difficult to
find such a good raw cider these days, even in the states where it is
still legal to sell it from the farm/orchard (such as N.H.) -- because
most orchards are shutting down after Thanksgiving, or even Halloween
due to staffing difficulties and public ignorance (one hopes this will
change back, if the "localvore" food demand grows and continues).
If you are filling your own jugs, leave about 3 inches of head space at
the top of the container before freezing, to allow for expansion. Cider
forms "slip ice", so it expands, with force enough to leak out and
deform overfilled jugs when it freezes.
It can take up to a day or more at cool room temperature to thaw a
gallon of cider (think of a big frozen turkey). But this slow thawing
presents some intriguing opportunities for the amateur cidermaker, that
I have yet to explore. Josh's question makes me think I should
experiment this winter, though.
While the cider is still somewhat frozen (i.e., there's a big hunk of
ice still floating around the jug), I imagine one could pour off the
concentrated, much sweeter, purer apple juice and use THAT for topping
up your fermenting cider. It would certainly raise your final alcohol
a bit and would benefit a lower S.G. cider in a "bad" year. But it
might be even more interesting to use the concentrated sweet juice
for adding back into the carboy before bottling, either sulfiting it to
suppress further yeast activity, or leaving it alone and bottling to
see if the added juice would give a dosage of sugar and encourage a bit
of bottle-conditioning.
But other CD people have done much more tinkering than I have, and
there may be reasons why this is a bad idea. Never know until you try,
is my philosophy. (Just don't try it with a 35-gallon batch!).
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Wild Yeast
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 10:25:51 -0500
While I'm no yeast expert, I inadvertently did something with my first
batch of cider this year that might have some bearing on this
discussion for home cidermakers.
Generally I try to measure the specific gravity of my juice and sulfite
it on the evening that we press the juice. But this year I had company
up, and lots to do that weekend, and -- well, I never got to sulfite
the juice before it started to work on its own.
At that point I had three choices. Either make a wild yeast batch and
see what I get -- I've had good, but inconsistent results with this in
past experiments, and some pretty sharp, funky-tasting batches as well
(though very fruity). Or add the sulfites and try and suppress the
yeast activity, then start over with cultured yeast. Or -- the path I
chose -- forget about the initial sulfites and just make a yeast
starter culture and pitch that into the already working wild yeast
cider.
My reasoning was that the Kloeckera and Candida and the "weaker"
natural yeasts that Andrew Lea mentions would have given the cider some
of the good start I was looking for, and the Sacchromyces yeast I was
adding (Pasteur champagne) would take it from there after the
population grew and the alcohol level got to around 2%.
So far, so good -- it was warm, but not exceptionally so, as the cider
started working, and I got a much better chapeau brun after pitching
the Pasteur yeast culture. I'm thinking that this was because I hadn't
"sanitized" the original must and let the yeasts and other critters
have their way. Now I've topped off the carboy, have it under airlock,
and the temperatures have dropped to seasonable levels -- so things are
fermenting along slowly and steadily.
I'll be interested to taste this batch when it's done, because I
suspect any major variations in flavor will be due largely to my not
knocking back the natural yeasts upfront. If this turns out to be a
good practice, I might continue to do things this way, and sulfite only
when racking off the primary, or before bottling, or perhaps not at
all. (I'm assuming that sulfiting at racking time will suppress any
possibility of secondary or malolactic fermentation, which I sometimes
like when it happens.)
In the past few years I've cut back the amount of sulfite I've been
using, and have generally only used it at the beginning of the process
at about 60 ppm. My thinking was that it would allow the maximum time
between treating and drinking and protect the cider without becoming
too perceptible. But I'm trying to be flexible and find what works best.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Freezing Cider
From: "Peter Johnson" <johnson_peter@sbcglobal.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 09:36:06 -0600
With regard to freezing cider let me start with the disclaimers: this is the
first year I have done it, I am strictly small scale, and I haven't let my
test run to completion. I use the term sweet cider to mean unfermented
apple juice. After pressing in early September I froze 30 gallons of
unpasteurized sweet cider. I have used the frozen cider to top off 15
gallons that I have brewing in carboys. I am also drinking the frozen sweet
cider and thaw a gallon each time I run out. So far it seems to be fine, I
have noticed no degradation in the taste of the sweet cider. The thawed
sweet cider lasts from 1-2 weeks in the fridge and then starts to ferment
spontaneously. I topped off the carboys with 2 gallons after racking and
while I don't see active fermentation (i.e. bubbles in my airlocks) I do see
residue on the bottom of the carboys. I plan to keep drinking the sweet
cider and will report back at the end of my test to let you know the
results. My preliminary assessment is that sweet cider can be frozen,
stored, thawed and reused without problem. At this point I'm not sure how
long it can be stored.
Peter Johnson
------------------------------
Subject: wild'n'crazy yeast
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 09:20:21 -0700
I had a surprise this year with a wild yeast start. Experience this one
vicariously if you will...
I'd finished pressing late in the day (cleaning the press after dark and
all) and put the last five gallons of juice into a carboy. I was tired and
hurtin', so decided I could safely leave it 'til morning to sulfite it...
thinking also, "If I try to measure and figure it out tonight, I'm sure to
screw up."
By mid-morning of the next day when I went to sulfite, the juice was
already fermenting! I knew I needed to sulfite anyway, against mold and
bacteria, so I figured according to Andrew's half-dose approach in order
to let the yeast I had keep going.
Here comes the stupid part: I normally fill carboys within a couple inches
of the top, so that when fermentation starts it pushes crud out a blowoff
tube. (Old brewing habit.) I also normally add the sulfite as powder at
the top and agitate a little to get it to sink, rather than mixing it into
liquid. Well, Dr Doofus didn't think about carbonated liquid and
nucleation sites! I dumped the powder in, looked up to grab a stopper and
fermentation lock, and looked back down to see the cider foaming out over
the top of the carboy. OK, (sigh) a little mess to clean up.
Uh, oh...wait a minute...how much KMS did I just add?!? That is, how much
of what I added stayed in the cider, vs how much ended up on the floor?
(I took a good guess and added more. Used the same method, since on the
second addition there was more room at the top of the carboy:-)
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Pears and perry fact check
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 09:51:34 -0700
> Sorry to have to correct you Dick, but most of the perry I make is
> 'common'.
I did understand that; my mistake was elsewhere:
> I haven't found some mysterious western source of perry pears - just
> Comice...
Somehow I had confounded that, from your earlier statement that "...but I
happen to get the pears for my blending base from Oregon..." with the
memory that your Fencerow Perry has some perry-pear varieties. I should
have been able to keep it straight; obviously "blending base" is quite
the opposite of specialty fruit.
Sorry about that!
If I understand correctly (risky assumption!) then the Fencerow is a
combination of some wild pears, some true (known variety) perry pears,
and some conventional pears?
> We'll see how my perry orchard recovers from this years horrid
> fireblight season.
That's going to be the challenge for everyone trying to grow perry pears
I think...since the massive all-at-once bloom of pears can mean a massive
fireblight attack on the trees.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: perry and fireblight
From: Charles Mcgonegal <cpm@appletrue.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2007 11:40:11 -0600
The extension people are saying that its the worst fireblight year in
20 around here.
I think the perry pears did better than a number of apples.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
Elegant Hard Cider and Orchard Wines
>
>> We'll see how my perry orchard recovers from this years horrid
>> fireblight season.
>
> That's going to be the challenge for everyone trying to grow perry pears
> I think...since the massive all-at-once bloom of pears can mean a massive
> fireblight attack on the trees.
> --
> Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Pears and perry fact check
From: Shawn Carney <shawn@blossomwoodcidery.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 21:49:14 -0500
>I haven't found some mysterious western source of perry pears - just
>Comice.
Is the Comice in the form of concentrate? I ask because
shipping/hauling fresh fruit across country would be hard on your "bottom
line".
Shawn
------------------------------
Subject: Imported cultivars.
From: Charles Mcgonegal <cpm@appletrue.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 08:28:48 -0600
I forget to mention in my other post, but I think the Frequin tardive
is available from Geneva. I got mine from Steve Jackson.
Of the things I've got in the import system, only toussaint chevalier
made it through to conditional release. The others are in therapy.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
Elegant Hard Cider and Orchard Wines
>>Sent from my iPhone<<
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1418, 5 November 2007
From: Steury and Noel family <steurynoel@mail.potlatch.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2007 08:06:38 -0800
from Tim Steury
re: French (etc.) varieties
To our great delight, all the Norman varieties we've planted seem to
like it here in northern Idaho, which is about as un-maritime as it
gets. All are slow to bear, which is the case with all our cider
varieties, which we have mostly on M7. Figure 7 years to bear
fully. However, we haven't pushed them at all.
Then there are a few, such as Tardive Forestiere and Nehou, that at
six years old have yet to produce a blossom, let alone fruit. I've
come to appreciate the comments of the Norman farmer who told us you
don't plant an orchard for yourself...
Muscadet de Dieppe, Muscadet de Berney, and Frequin Rouge are doing
very well well, healthy and prolific. Bedan is showing promise.
We're moving heavily in that direction.
Regarding Kingston Black, maybe it's found its true home here in the
semi-arid West! It is very slow growing and we have some problem
with blight in bad years (like this one). I certainly wouldn't want
to rely on it exclusively, but based on their performance so far, I'm
planting more.
Maybe we should talk about coordinating this information. Alan at
Cummins Nursery has been gathering performance information on cider
varieties. Alan, are you on this list?
- --
Tim Steury and Diane Noel
1021 McBride Road
Potlatch, ID 83855
208.875.0804
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1419
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