Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Cider Digest #1405
Subject: Cider Digest #1405, 27 August 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1405 27 August 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Dick Dunn's letter to the editor of Food & Wine magazine... (Dick Dunn)
Re: Perry (poire) (Benjamin Watson)
Sediment Question (Larry Gianakis)
Cider distribution and marketing (and a perry PS) ("McGonegal, Charles P")
CD 1404 ("Mike Beck")
Cider marketing ("Mike Beck")
Query re Harrison Tree Size (Diane Flynt)
Cider ShortCourse at Cornell (Ian Merwin)
Tasting Room vs Wholesale (Barton)
Re: Cider Digest #1404 (shawn@blossomwoodcidery.com)
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the
message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them.
Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Dick Dunn's letter to the editor of Food & Wine magazine...
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:01:06 -0600
Thanks, Jay. For the record, if anybody's interested in what I actually
wrote (as opposed to what was printed!), it follows. Note in particular
that I suggested five cidermakers, but they dropped three, and not even
off the end of the sequence, so it gave my note an entirely unintended New
England bias! I don't mind boosting Terry and Steve, especially since they
are the older cidermakers in my list, but I'd rather not have the others
dropped.
In the note below, I bracketed the big chunks they left out--including the
final wishful thinking about perry. They also made various minor changes
in wording, which I think is a bit shady where it shifts the meaning.
| Congratulations on "The Keg vs the Cork" in the June issue. It's
| overdue for folks serious about food to understand that quality beer is
| part of the picture. Special thanks for mentioning New Albion's role in
| the craft beer renaissance--they're too often ignored by marketing-driven
| come-lately brewers [who want to claim the part. The other key player in
| the movement, from the beginning, has been Anchor in San Francisco.]
|
| But now that you've spoken out for craft beer, how about [really stepping
| out and] exploring craft cider[? No, I don't mean the cheap, fizzy "six
| pack ciders and malternatives" but rather the real ciders] made by
| artisans: West County (MA), [Westcott Bay (WA),] Farnum Hill (NH),
| [Æppeltreow (WI), Wandering Aengus (OR), to name a few in the growing
| movement.]
|
| [(Then, for the future, watch for the growth of true perry in the US.)]
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Perry (poire)
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 08:33:13 -0400
Mea culpa.
Dick Dunn took me to task for limiting my perry focus to the Great
Lakes. And he's correct -- Alan Foster at the former White Oak Cider
made some of the best perry I've had, certainly in America, and really
anywhere. But sadly, he's out of the business these days and actually
working as a winemaker in Oregon (and putting his daughters through
college).
I'd love to see perry establish itself all over North America, as cider
is starting to do. And I hope that Shawn Carney is incorrect that
quince rootstock (a natural dwarf) is only reliably hardy out west --
because I was fully intending to graft some quince and pears on quince
A or C next year.
At next month's annual meeting of the Slow Food USA Ark & Presidia
Committee in Madison, WI, we will probably consider my nomination of
Meech's Prolific quince for the Slow Food Ark of Taste.
Dick mentioned the Ark and Presidia -- the Ark is designed to promote
under-appreciated traditional foods, breeds, and varieties. The
Presidia are projects that involve a group of producers. So, for
instance, Tom Burford, Tami Lax, and I nominated something like 129
heritage US apples to the Ark list back in 2003. But there is a
specific Presidium project out in Sonoma County to preserve and
promote the growers and processors of the Gravenstein Apple of Sonoma
County.
On the international level, I was asked a few years ago to consult on
the perry presidium -- but I actually didn't try many of the Three
Counties entries. A British cider guy and I both sampled a Spanish
perry, which was very traditional I guess, but not very enjoyable for
me (way too acetic).
Dick clearly has more experience with perries than I do, in the UK
certainly, so I defer to his judgment. I didn't mean to exclude Tom
Oliver, of course (I tend to respond to CD very early in the A.M.), and
I have also had very good "draft perry" made by Day's Cottage, I
believe.
So much to taste, so little liver capacity left. . .
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Sediment Question
From: Larry Gianakis <lgianakis@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 05:42:41 -0700 (PDT)
About two months ago I bottled my cider pressed in November of 2006.
It was crystal clear going into the bottle. The blend was Roxbury Russett
and several other heirloom and European varieties from Scott Farm in
Dummerston VT. I primed with about a quart of cider which I froze at
pressing. (I let it partially thaw and poured off the concentated juice
and boiled it for 15 minutes)
Now there is a white sediment that tends to clump together when it it cold.
My thought was that it had to do with the pectins in the cider.
I primed the whole batch this way so there is nothing I can do, but I
would like to understand what happened to keep it from happening next year.
- -Larry
------------------------------
Subject: Cider distribution and marketing (and a perry PS)
From: "McGonegal, Charles P" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 07:57:19 -0500
Very nice piece, Bill. I'm sure there are plenty of lurkers who are
tiring of the discussion - but there's some good stuff coming out that
should help start-up projects. Or at least help them set their
expectations.
I go both ways with packaging and price point. Champagne-like (and
champagne method), with heavy glass, champagne corks and foils at
$15-$19/750mL. And 187mL mini-champagnes with crown caps @ $2. That
still work out to about $8 for 750mL, and most importantly, it doesn't
look like a beer bottle. I think that's an important point you make.
I'd like to second, and highlight, a couple of points you make about
off-farm sales. In your second point, you include line maintenance in
your list of kegged product issues. And later down you mention the need
to (often) front and maintain your own shelf space in shops. I was
amazed to learn just how many retail businesses leave those tasks to the
suppliers, rather than do it themselves - but it seems to be widespread.
And it happens in some specialty shops, as well as big chain stores.
Getting to know the managers and staff at various stores is both
important - and _at least_ one full time job that involves lots of
driving. The fellow who originally commissioned the draft products from
me talks about the distributor reps who camp out in his bar, become
regulars and then ask for a draft line. They build up a relationship as
a customer, then use that to make the pitch/plea and work the guilt
factor. My personal preference is to spend the time educating consumers
directly, in my tasting room. But then, I don't claim to be good at
distribution :-)
The draft market (kegged/tapped/served by the glass) is tempting - it
seems like such a natural fit for cider. But the price/access hurdles
are great. I'd like to see a small producer make it work - and learn
from them if they'll share. I'm using my collection of kegs primarily
for cooperage these days.
And in considering marketing elegant/authentic/parsimonious cider to
foodies - in general I agree with most of what Mark Lattazni said -
especially in his second, more detailed post. In fact, it was a
specific point in my original business plan. Experience in my
particular little piece of the world has been mixed, though. When I get
Slow Food groups in, they turn out to be tasters, rather than buyers.
The sales rate to them isn't any better than say, oh - the Bentley
driving club. Or the Vespa club, for that matter. Foodies who come
across my cidery on their own (rather than as a group outing) are a
different matter. _They_ make _good_ customers. People like little
niche businesses better when they 'discover' them, I think. Dealing
with Executive Chefs is an art unto itself.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow
PS: regarding perry and regionality. Ben said some nice things about
some of my pear products (not all of which I call perry) - but I happen
to get the pears for my blending base from Oregon. There are few pear
orchards in the Great Lakes watershed, glacial moraine and till fields
and climate influence areas. Used to be, but few were replanted after a
major fireblight outbreak about a generation ago. Let us hope the perry
varieties fair better. I hope that perry will be a rising star in the
alcohol trade. Having grown up in Michigan, I've a lifetime of exposure
to 'Great Lakes as a fruit growing region' marketing propaganda - it
doesn't offend me. And I'll ride it if I can. Long exposure might have
blunted my senses, I suppose.
PPS: Dick, I'm right with you on the concern that grape wineries will
(and do) dabble in pears without an understanding or appreciation of
perry history/traditions. It's one of my pet peeves when it comes to
(grape) wineries and apples - they jump in without learning the
background, and you end up seeing blueberry/apple fruit wines at 12% ABV
billed as 'Farmhouse Cider'. My impression from several years of Digest
reading is that most cidermakers use 'country'/'farmhouse'/'farmgate'
cider as short hand for cider in its minimalist interpretation - and
it's usually highly admired. But you used 'country wine' with a negative
implication. Shouldn't 'country wine' be the grape equivalent? Local,
minimalist, authentic/quirky? There was a recent editorial in one of
the industry rags (V&WM, I think - sorry - Vineyard and Winery
Management) recently to that effect - a global 'fine' wine judge
reflecting that perhaps he'd been approaching 'country' wine with the
wrong attitude. That contrasts with a wine journalism article on fruit
wines that I came across via one of the wine headline email newsletters.
It quoted folks like Fred Kohler in Illinois about how 'correct' fruit
wines _had_ to be big and juicy. Complete anathema to small/craft cider
and perry philosophy.
------------------------------
Subject: CD 1404
From: "Mike Beck" <mjbeck@ujcidermill.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 12:17:15 -0400
Dick Dunn had some comments about the "Great Lakes" and its Perry potential
- - CD 1404
It is not out of the question for the Great Lakes to be the cradle of
something like this. Take for instance the Honey Crisp Apple. This is the
boon apple for the grower for the last 5 - 10 or so years and looks very
good for the near future. This apple was breed in Minnesota and is now
widely planted through ought the US. MN,MI & WI growers were early on in
the cultivation process. Honey Crisp was sold primarily at farm markets
in the Great Lakes Region and the market demand grew for them so much that
the common grocer now demanded to have them. Honey Crisp is a finicky apple
and the Packer-Shipper was not totally enthused about supplying them.
Returns can be tremendous for quality fruit. We sell the very best ones for
as much as $95.00 a bushel. The Great Lakes is without a doubt the cradle
for this apple as well as many others.
Most of the biggest food processing plants in America are in the Great
Lakes. Gerber, Motts, Nouse, Kellogs, etc., etc, They have access to some
of the finest fruits, vegetables and grains anywhere. In the world of
specialty crops, The only state to grow a wider range of specialty crops
than Michigan is California. Parts of the Great Lakes can grow crops in
quantity that few others can. To say that it is equal to half the nation is
just plain silly. The other advantage is that most of the Great Lakes
Region is 500 miles or less to 80% of nations population. While I do not
want to belittle any other growing region. The Great Lakes has
Micro-Climate and soils that can not be duplicated anywhere else. Other
regions posses their own unique attributes, very true. However, the "Great
Lakes" has some built in advantages other areas do not. What will grow
perry out of the cradle is high quality producers educating consumers about
the fine attributes of this product.
(factoids produced from the Michigan Department of Agriculture Website)
Mike Beck
St. John's, Michigan
------------------------------
Subject: Cider marketing
From: "Mike Beck" <mjbeck@ujcidermill.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2007 14:23:13 -0400
I would like to add some comments that have developed. As Bill Rhyne stated:
Chicks dig Cider - True. I have found with cider that in the farm tasting
room that dudes drink cider and the chicks are drinking other stuff (ciders
take up 3 spots on my 23 wine tasting sheet). Off farm and at events and
festivals, chicks dig cider. Until very recently the cider was only
available through a draft system. Tap handles appeal to dudes while well
dressed bottles appeal to chicks. From what I have observed so far.
Shawn Carney talks about Location, Location, Location. This is one of the
most important factors in developing a "sustainable" winery. To place
yourself well off the beaten path would be a mistake. A wine trail or High
traffic area will certainly be beneficial. The tasting room sales are the
bread and butter of the business. The margins on the wholesale side are
small. To further Bill Rhynes Comments, you have to work retailers in to
shape and keep educating them. Why would a wholesaler do much to promote a
small cider company when they have container loads of yellow tail
To sell that can turn higher profits for them. Very few wholesalers of
alcohol beverage really care about quality. Margins drive their business,
make no mistake. I would certainly never advise anyone to start a cidery or
any other winery with the goal to sell it all to wholesaler in mind.
My own model has some built in advantages. My 6,000 gallons of Ciders &
Perry annually is only 10% of a larger, retail only, fresh cider and
Agritainment business we have created. I have also used $175,000 in federal
USDA grant money to start the alcoholic cider business and expand it. My
model never did plan to sell any product beyond the farm gate. I was
convinced by some retailers and a tenacious wholesaler to go beyond the
reach of our farm. I question why with all hoops I have to go through to
keep in line with my states alc. Bev. Marketing rules.
Off farm Sales - I have let my wholesaler handle all aspects of promotion
and sales beyond the five or six counties that I can service from home. So
far they have served me well. Getting a cider in to retail shelves is a
whole lot simpler than trying to get a spot on a wine list in a restaurant
or tavern. Cider through a draft system seems to be a more palatable
solution. Charles McGonegal had mentioned that there is some price barriers
for keg products. This is true. You really have to do some coaching with
the bar manager, remind them your dealing with fruit rather than grain and
that excise taxes are far greater also. Buy local, made by locals campaigns
have helped with those 5 or 6 counties around me.
Just some thoughts from my view in the center of the "Great Lakes"
Mike Beck
Uncle John's Cider Mill
Uncle John's Fruit House Winery & Distillery
St. John's, MI
------------------------------
Subject: Query re Harrison Tree Size
From: Diane Flynt <dflynt@mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 09:35:41 -0400
Anyone have reasonable experience with "Harrison" trees to know what sort
of size to expect. I just want a general idea like whether they tend to
be pretty big, average, kinda small...
Dick asked about experience with Harrison trees. Our 10 year old
Harrisons at Foggy Ridge Cider are 18 feet on M111. They are
comparable in vigor to Graniwinkle, Ashmead's and Roxbury Russet and
a little less vigorous than Smith Cider and Black Limbertwig. They
grow quite upright and are difficult to spread. Harrison was slow to
bear for me (7 years before significant fruit vs 5 for most other
varieties) and tends to send up watersprouts.
You can see more details on Harrison and other apples on the Foggy
Ridge Cider website. Go to the Our Apples page and see the pdf file
Orchard Notebook. I've listed bloom and harvest dates for the 30 plus
varieties we grow, all at our orchard in the Blue Ridge Mountains in
southwest Virginia.
Diane Flynt
Foggy Ridge Cider
1328 Pineview Road
Dugspur, VA 24325
276 398-2337
www.foggyridgecider.com
------------------------------
Subject: Cider ShortCourse at Cornell
From: Ian Merwin <im13@cornell.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:51:36 -0400
For those of you interested in refining your (hard) cidermaking
skills, there will be an intermediate level short course offered by
Dr. Peter Mitchell at the Cornell University/Geneva NY Experiment
Station, on December 4-6th, 2007. Cost will be $625 per person, not
including lodging (this covers Dr. Mitchell's expenses and fee for
teaching the course). Those with some previous experience and
knowledge in cidermaking will find this course especially useful. It
includes hands-on practice in the organoleptic and chemical analysis
of ciders. Complete course information and details are available by
contacting either me (im13@cornell.edu) or Olga Padilla-Zakour
(oip1@nysaes.cornell.edu). Enrollment will be limited to 25, so it
is advisable to register promptly if you want to take this course.
- --
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((!)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Ian A. Merwin, PhD
Professor of Horticulture & International Agriculture
118 Plant Science Bldg
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY, USA, 14853
Telephone: 607-255-1777
<www.hort.cornell.edu/department/faculty/merwin/index.htm>
------------------------------
Subject: Tasting Room vs Wholesale
From: Barton <info@cidery.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2007 14:27:12 -0400
I've found the recent discussion about tasting room sales versus
wholesale interesting. When we started out, we had both a tasting room
and some distribution. We loved getting the full price from our tasting
room sales and were somewhat discouraged by the huge bite that
distributor/retailer took (although we understood their need to do so).
Early on we ditched the distribution and went exclusively with tasting
room (and farmer's market) sales. With a few more years under our
belts, the cost reality of running a tasting room year round, seven days
a week has started to sink in. Selling direct is not as much of a
bargain as we initially had thought. If you are properly accounting for
all the costs that are incurred to sell direct, wholesale starts to look
somewhat better.
Another reality of selling direct also is starting to sink in. We
operate in one of the wine regions of Upstate New York, and are a member
of the oldest wine trail in the Finger Lakes. A large winery in our
area will serve tastes to 60,000 plus visitors annually. In comparison
our cidery will serve about 20,000 tasters annually. Location-wise, we
are really fortunate to be able to ride the coattails of a big regional
tourist draw. We have realized, however, that although the numbers look
great, tasters and buyers ain't the same. Furthermore, the more tasters
you attract over time, the lower the percentage of buyers to tasters.
This is true for both the wineries and our lone cidery. As a result, we
all are moving towards tasting fees and other incentives to convert
tasters to buyers or at least to discourage the true freeloader.
Unfortunately, as your number of tasters significantly increases, so do
your tasting room costs (bigger room, more bars, more staff, more
bathrooms, ...). So does the demand for sweeter products.
Following the lead of our wine colleagues, we have decided that we can
only thrive by actively going the wholesale route to seriously
supplement our tasting room sales. No one in this region is going to
give up on the tasting room, but I see the smaller wineries doing about
10%-20% of their sales through distribution. For the bigger wineries,
distribution is 30%+.
In terms of types of cider, we pretty much offer the same selection in
both tasting room and through distribution. We do have several
bottle-conditioned ciders that are produced in small lots that we don't
release to the distributor. Just like in the tasting room, the drier
ciders don't sell as well in distribution. My point is that our
production mix has not changed because we wholesale. Sweeter sells
better (lots better) in either venue. Price-wise, we have not had to
make any adjustments for wholesale. As long as we aren't confusing the
issue by packaging our ciders like beer, they can support wine pricing.
Bill Barton, Bellwether Hard Cider
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1404
From: shawn@blossomwoodcidery.com
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 12:43:22 -0400
Bill Rhyne's and Charles McGonegal's posts in the last digest have a lot of
good information.
Off digest, someone made the point that there is a middle ground between
watering down to 5% and keeping the alcohol level natural, and reminded
me that adding water to cider has been a common practice for hundreds of
years, and if done well, usually makes a better cider than blending in
any old apple you can get your hands on. They also made note of the fact
when a group of friends are out drinking they usually order their drinks
together and probably drink at about the same rate, so you don't want the
cider drinkers to be falling over too soon in the evening.
Someone who does a fair bit of draft sales said they have their cider served
in a 12oz short stem tulip type pilsner glass. I think that's probably a
smart way to do things. I don't want to compete against beer and since cider
isn't beer I don't see any need to. I was heading down the road of a 10 oz
serving with keeping the natural ABV; our ciders range from about 7.5 - 8.8%
( I apologize for not including Charles' 4.5% apples in my off the cuff ABV
range). Maybe natural alcohol content is better for a bottled product and
'standardizing a bit' is better for the pub/bar/tavern setting where people
need to figure out how to get home later. I am no longer convinced the
alcohol level is even really as important as how the product is presented,
which to me means using a unique glass. Whether it's 7% or 3% cider, as
long as it is quality and unique there will be people who will want to buy
it. People who need to drive or don't want to get smashed in a few hours
would probably be happy to pay five dollars a glass for an excellent 3%
cider. I look forward to the day when you can go to the bar and have a
choice between five or more ciders on draft whatever the ABV is, as long
as it is not a watered down alcopop, but a quality cider. As for process
I suppose it really doesn't matter how you arrive at your desired %ABV,
whether using water, cold stabilization, or low sugar apples. I think it's
good to keep cider different enough that people who don't like beer or
just want to try somthing different would be willing to pay a dollar or
so more for a glass of cider and think they are getting something special
(which they are). It seems that it may be easier to convince the barkeep
that a smaller serving size and slight higher price will not cause them
to lose money, but rather fill the gap between beer and wine and draw in
more people (in groups),thereby increasing business. I think the important
thing is to not get in the mind set that 'you have to do things the exact
same way the beer guys have done it'.
Shawn Carney
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1405
*************************
