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Cider Digest #1394
Subject: Cider Digest #1394, 30 June 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1394 30 June 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
RE: San Diego competition results ("Mike Faul")
Orchard Pests (Deer) ("Margevicius, Joe")
Re: Cider Digest #1392, 24 June 2007 (ALMARAPPLE@aol.com)
RE: San Diego competition results ("shawn carney")
Xylitol (Andrew Lea)
The asparagus factor (Andrew Lea)
Fruit thinning (Donald Davenport)
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Subject: RE: San Diego competition results
From: "Mike Faul" <mfauL@faul.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 10:46:19 -0700
On the Fox barrel web site it says it was a Gold in the California State
Fair.
Wyders is a mass produced cider made in Canada and shipped to various
bottlers in the US. Tim is correct that it is typically in the alcopop
category.
I have tried several of the Fox Barrel ciders and while they are pretty
clean compared to the typical Hornsby, Wyders etc, they are really light and
have no depth.
I am afraid that the 'wine' competitions will look at all the mass produced
products as the standard from now on....
Subject: San Diego competition results
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2007 08:42:33 -0700
On the Homebrewing Digest, someone posted the results of the 2007 San Diego
County Fair - Craft Brewers Competition.
> Cider:
> Gold: Fruit Cider - Fox Barrel Cider Co., Fox Barrel Pear Cider
> Silver: Common Cider - Wyder's Cider, Wyder's Apple Cider
> Bronze: Common Cider - Fox Barrel Cider Co., Fox Barrel Hard Cider
The last time I tried Wyder's it was clearly a glucose wine/alcopop, with a
strong "Jolly Rancher" flavor. Is this some other Wyder's?
Tim in Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Orchard Pests (Deer)
From: "Margevicius, Joe" <jmargevicius@walbridge.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 22:20:45 -0400
Up here in Michigan white-tail country, the deer were especially
destructive last winter. Turned our new front yard landscaping into a
$6000 salad bowl, and even went after the Norway spruce, which they
never do.
About the only sure fire deterrent is a physical barrier like a fence.
They will easily jump an 8 foot fence. An electric fence needs to have
the wires spaced 8" or 10" apart; I personally watched them jump between
wires 16" apart. Some of the websites I visited also said make the fence
10 foot high. The guy at the farm store also suggested baiting the hot
wires with peanut butter to teach the bolder ones to respect the
electric wires. By the time you erect a 10 foot fence with wires spaced
every 8", individual 5' high fences around each tree might be more
practical. I've done that and it seems to work as well as anything.
I agree with Tim a good solution might be to consume the ringleaders. If
you don't like venison, many of the homeless shelters around here will
gladly accept it. Some of the best venison I ever had was soaked
overnight in an apple cider marinade. It made the meat very tasty and
tender. Also seemed like poetic justice.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1392, 24 June 2007
From: ALMARAPPLE@aol.com
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 12:13:57 EDT
I have tried almost every method in the last 30 years to control the browsing
deer during the summer and found that most methods work for only part of
the season and then the deer get use to them. Fencing works best but is very
costly and time consuming to build for large acreage. For me as a commercial
organic apple grower, liquid fish sprayed on the trees each week, stops all
browsing, is cheap and easy to apply, and fertilizes the tree at the same time
as I'm repelling the deer. I've used nothing else for the last ten years except
a 30-30 in the fall.
Jim Koan
Michigan
------------------------------
Subject: RE: San Diego competition results
From: "shawn carney" <scarney88@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:14:30 -0600
I guess it comes down to the definition of cider? The big producers ferment
some form of sugar and add "natural flavorings". Is it important whether
the sugar happens to come from an apple? I am sure the filter will take
care of all taste before adding the "natural flavoring". Does it matter
whether the natural flavorings taste like apple jolly rancher? Why wouldn't
bubble gum flavored fermented apple juice qualify as cider?
Here is the definition of "natural flavor"
"The essential oil, oleoresin, essence or extractive, protein hydrolysate,
distillate, or any product of roasting, heating or enzymolysis, which
contains the flavoring constituents derived from a spice, fruit or fruit
juice, vegetable or vegetable juice, edible yeast, herb, bark, bud, root,
leaf or similar plant material, meat, seafood, poultry, eggs, dairy
products, or fermentation products thereof, whose significant function in
food is flavoring rather than nutritional."
I looked on the back of a mountain dew can and it is flavored by 100%
natural flavors. I guess pretty much anything qualifies.
Should a product that is made by mixing fresh apple juice (even bittersweet
cider apple juice) with filtered tasteless (fermented apple juice) "cider"
qualify as a cider? For a drink to be qualified as cider shouldn't the
flavor profile be a product of fermentation and maturation instead of what
you add at bottling time whether it's "natural flavoring" or fresh juice? I
am not sure that a product that tastes like 100% fresh apple juice is any
more of a cider than one that tastes like a jolly rancher. I suppose
sweetness is a sensory characteristic and not so much a flavor, so adding
sugar at bottling may not apply. I am guilty (so far I have never added
sugar at bottling), I have added apple concentrate once, learned my lesson,
and don't ever plan on doing it again.
I see a glimmer of hope if a 10 year old cider lost in a pigsty can win at
Bath and West, only if he could have put a touch of jolly rancher in the
bottle maybe it could win in the US. I will hold back my opinion of cider
falling under the jurisdiction of BJCP, but you can use your imagination.
Shawn Carney
------------------------------
Subject: Xylitol
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 19:08:58 +0100
Joe Margevicius wrote:
> Does anyone have any experience using Xylitol as a sweetener in
> cider? I understand it is a natural sugar, derived from birch trees,
> but does not ferment.
Xylitol is a sugar alcohol (polyol) which is naturally occurring in
small quantities but the stuff you buy commercially is synthetic and is
made by hydrolysis of wood pulp to xylose and further catalytic
hydrogenation to xylitol. It has the same sweetening power as sugar.It
probably would work fine as a sweetener in cider apart from a bloating /
laxative effect similar to most other polyols eg sorbitol which already
occurs at low levels in cider and perry. Effects might be noted at 25 g
ingested dose. If a cider were sweetened with xylitol at say 2.5% for an
off-dry cider then after a couple of pints you might notice something.
Its major current application in the food industry is in sugar-free
chewing gum because it is not cariogenic. There the dose is much lower
because the units are so small. Previously it was also used in
specialist diabetic products but the pendulum has swung against these now.
The major current drawback is cost - I have seen figures of $7 per pound
quoted which does not compare favourably with sugar at 25c per pound. I
guess that's why it's not been used in beverages. In the EU it has the
designation E967 and is not currently permitted for addition to
alcoholic drinks such as cider but has typical authorisation for baked
goods, desserts and confectionery.
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: The asparagus factor
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2007 19:14:37 +0100
Josh Klatt wrote:
> No weighing in from you, Andrew, on the "asparagus factor" of
> perry?!?
Shawn already weighed me in the balance for this one, I'm afraid, and I
was found wanting! So I suggested asking the whole group!
Andrew
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Fruit thinning
From: Donald Davenport <djdavenport@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 08:12:10 -0600
For the first time, my cider apple trees have set a very nice amount
of fruit. Early on, I thinned to one apple per cluster and, beyond
that, thinned to an average of probably 4 inches between fruit. This
is a somewhat higher density than I have on my culinary and desert
apples, primarily because I'm hoping for a little greater size on the
latter.
So, I was wondering just what the current thinking is for cider
apples. Since it seems to come down to numbers versus size, where
should those two lines meet?
Thanks,
Don Davenport
Santa Fe, NM
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End of Cider Digest #1394
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