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Cider Digest #1396
Subject: Cider Digest #1396, 14 July 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1396 14 July 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider judging ("David Houseman")
San Diego competition; Wyder's (Tim Bray)
Sea Cider Grand Opening to be held Saturday, July 21 (Kristen Jordan)
RE: Cider Digest #1395, 7 July 2007 ("Julian Temperley")
RE: San Diego competition results ("shawn carney")
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Subject: Re: Cider judging
From: "David Houseman" <david.houseman@verizon.net>
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 10:54:30 -0400
Richard,
Thanks for being kind to BJCP judges :-)) You may or may not be aware
that the BJCP is in the process of establishing a Cider Judge
certification. For existing BJCP judges it will be an additional
certification but the test can be taken on its own by non-BJCP judges to
establish themselves as a cider judge. The BJCP is working with the cider
community, just as they did in establishing the cider guidelines, to create
an exam and study guide. Stay tuned for more information about this
activity. BTW, there will also be a mead judge certification as well.
David Houseman
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Subject: San Diego competition; Wyder's
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 08:56:03 -0700
Greetings all,
My question seems to have inadvertently led us back into the perennial
discussion of BJCP and cider judging in general. Just for the record,
before history rolls over it, my question really was about Wyder's
Cider. What is it - a glucose wine, or a craft cider? If I understand
correctly, it was entered into a "Craft Cider" competition by a
distributor. I can't quite tell from the Web site whether it really is
a craft cider (fermented apple juice) or a glucose wine (made from
fermented sugar with apple concentrate, flavor, etc. added back after
fermentation). If it's really made from apple juice, they must have some
way of stopping fermentation and then carbonating, to get an alcohol
content of 4 - 5%.
This leads us back to the question of definitions: what exactly is
"Craft Cider?" I think Dick proposed the simplest and best: Fermented
Apple Juice. If you squeeze apples and ferment the juice, you're making
craft cider, even if you add sugar or other adjuncts. I suppose you
could make craft cider from someone else's juice, but not from
concentrate. (Is beer made from malt extract considered "craft brewed?")
Back to San Diego, I wonder how many of the cider mills in the San Diego
area make hard cider, as opposed to "Apple cider" (i.e. juice), for
sale. A few years ago they all appeared to be selling juice, but maybe
that has changed.
The good news is that cider continues to increase in popularity and
attention. I still can't figure out how to make any money from craft
cider, but at least there's demand for the product. My neighbours love it.
Cheers,
Tim in Albion, CA
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Subject: Sea Cider Grand Opening to be held Saturday, July 21
From: Kristen Jordan <seacider@shaw.ca>
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 13:04:15 -0700
Sea Cider Farm & Ciderhouse quietly opened its doors to the public a few
weeks ago, but now we are ready to party! Our Grand Opening Party will be
held on Saturday, July 21st, from 11:00 am to 7:00 pm. The Ciderhouse is
located on our certified organic farm 15 minutes north of Victoria on
Vancouver Island's Saanich Peninsula. Please check out our website,
www.seacider.ca <http://www.seacider.ca/> , for a map and directions.
We aim to produce high quality, hand crafted "New World" and "Old World"
style ciders made from certified organic apples. We have two ciders
currently bottled - "Kings & Spies" and "Wild English". Wild English
derives its name from a wild yeast fermentation of English bittersweet cider
apples, including Kingston Blacks and Yarlington Mills grown at Sea Cider
Farm. This sparkling amber cider is ultra dry, robust and earthy, with
distinctive tannins in the traditional Herefordshire style (6.6 % alc./vol).
Alternatively, our Kings & Spies is crafted from North American heritage
apples - primarily Kings, Northern Spies, Newton Pippins and Winesaps -
yielding a fruit-forward, off-dry sparkler (8.3 % alc./vol). Finally, just
in time for our Grand Opening, we hope to have our "Rumrunner" bottled.
Fermented with a champagne yeast then aged in rum barrels, this amber
off-dry sparkling cider has notes of rum, brown sugar and cinnamon (11%
alc./vol.). Yummy!
Kristen Jordan
Sea Cider Farm & Ciderhouse
2487 Mt. St. Michael Rd.
Victoria, BC V8M 1T7
T: 250 544 4824
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1395, 7 July 2007
From: "Julian Temperley" <somcb@globalnet.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 11:20:05 +0100
In the UK there has been recently much debate about judging cider. One
view is that this should be the preserve of so called cider experts who
often try to earn a living advising the cider industry and put forward
the view, and sets of rules, that judging is too complicated for mere
mortals. They often spend a large amount to time rejudging and
rubbishing any results not judged by themselves. As a cidermaker who has
won many prizes in the Uk I think we should not forget that we make cider
for the public to buy and judging needs to reflect that. Our trick here to
win prizes has in the past been to select a number of ciders which are
possible candidates and then invite any visitors to the farm (the oilman,
the vet , even the postman and the wife) to sit round a table and mark
the possibles out of ten and then go with that. This has been translated
into judging by having one judge with cider knowledge who can quickly
reject the nohopers and one with an educated palate for wine or food,
preferably a food and drink writer, who's views will more closely reflect
the public taste than any so called experts. Julian Temperley ,
www.ciderbrandy.co.uk <http://www.ciderbrandy.co.uk/>
------------------------------
Subject: RE: San Diego competition results
From: "shawn carney" <scarney88@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:57:57 -0600
"I will hold back my opinion of cider falling under the jurisdiction of
BJCP, but you can use your imagination."
If don't want to use your imagination read on otherwise skip- I do not enter
competitions and probably never will, that's why I didn't give my full
opinion, It still bothers me when beverages like the ones entered win a
cider competition, now adding in the magnitude of the event makes it worse.
I was not blaming BJCP or the judges at the event. I think it was stupid to
make cider judging a category of BJCP. Nothing was gained, without full
training for judges the competitions have been pretty poor. It wouldn't
have taken anymore effort to start from scratch. Starting out small with a
few categories and a few competitions would have made more sense until the
wrinkles were ironed out and the pool of qualified judges grew. Instead
every beer competition in the country was given a license to judge cider
with the flick of a switch. But of course it makes it easy to grab a bunch
of metals while the competition is low (which was told to me once).
>Gold: Fruit Cider - Fox Barrel Cider Co., Fox Barrel Pear Cider
>Silver: Common Cider - Wyder's Cider, Wyder's Apple Cider
>Bronze: Common Cider - Fox Barrel Cider Co., Fox Barrel Hard Cider
These were the fine products that won, (what the heck is pear cider? Is it
similar to their "traditional English black cider" flavored with black
currents which oddly enough is similar to a drink consumed by collage
students in England that goes by the name of "Diesel" and "Purple Nasty".)
How is it going to help craft cidermakers who are trying to establish a
market for perry when crap like pear flavored cider win under the BJCP fruit
cider category. You may say "It's up to you to compete and make sure they
don't win" but if I did compete I would not be competing against them anyway
unless I made a fruit cider which I am convinced god would strike me dead if
I did. So, there is a gold medal pear cider and a gold metal perry. what
the hell is perry? a customer asks, well it's pear cider! So the fox barrel
pear cider is just as good of a product as the gold metal perry? Well
that's just @#*!ing great! That should be pretty confusing for customers,
but hey, when writing up the BJCP cider guidelines heaven forbid anyone get
left out of the fun. If someone wants to put crunchberries, dingleberries,
or bogberries in their cider to increase sales more power to them, I can't
imagine why they would have a strong urge to compete with it?
>One example of a competition that seeks to make its results count for
>something is the
>Three Counties International Cider & Perry Competition. This year there
>were no bronze medals >awarded for either of the two perry categories,
>though apparently not for lack of entries.
Ok, so a good competition doesn't just hand out metals depending on who
showed up, I agree.
>If Foxbarrel and Wyders were the only cider entrants in the San Diego
>competition then it should >hardly be surprising that they took the cider
>awards.
So from what you said above this must have been a pretty poor competition to
hand out medals for just showing up.
>From Chad's email It seems like he contacted juice (sweet cider) mills?
Didn't he know the difference between juice and cider? When you take on the
responsibility to run an event you take on the responsibility of doing a
good job. It's great that he wants to improve the event, I can't imagine
him saying "I thought it was terrific and plan to keep it the way it is".
"Consider also that small and medium scale craft
cidermakers are not incapable of making one-dimensional ciders. In
fact, some of the more pragmatic make a point of having the macro-style
sweet ones on hand in their tasting rooms as a part of their overall
offering because a substantial number of customers prefer them. I've
heard again and again from cidermakers who have learned the hard way
that what a cidermaker likes to produce in order to impress those who
really know cider (such as other cidermakers) are not necessarily the
ones that customers will purchase. When a cidermaker relies on income
from selling cider to make cidermaking viable then he or she must
consider what the customer wants. If a customer keeps coming back it is
more likely that a taste for the other ciders will develop in time.
Before blaming commercial competitions and the judging, consider that
these simpler ciders may be the ones entered against more widely
distributed ciders such as Wyders, Woodchuck, or Hornsbys."
People don't necessarily prefer a sweeter product. I can respond to the
above in one sentence - A crappy sweet cider sells better than a crappy dry
cider.
Want to know why woodchuck and wyders win national cider competitions?
(other than the judges may enjoy a nice glass served over ice with a squirt
of raspberry every night) Because national cider competitions were started
premature in the US. There isn't that much good cider here yet, and most
people (even judges) don't know the difference. they are "gobbling up
medals while the competition lis low" (sometimes your own strategy bites you
in the ass).
shawn aka "blue in the face"
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End of Cider Digest #1396
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