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Cider Digest #1371
Subject: Cider Digest #1371, 27 February 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1371 27 February 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Best French Cider ("Matthew John Jeffs")
Ice Cider (Celia Congdon)
Lactose (Andrew Lea)
Re: Lactose (and tannin) (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Best French Cider
From: "Matthew John Jeffs" <johnjeffs@westnet.com.au>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:31:04 +1030
Dear All,
I live in Australia and have been maker cider for a few years. I have been
lucky enough to receive a grant to gain work experience in France to learn
how to make cider. Could you please suggest who would be the best sparkling
cider maker to learn from.
Many Thanks
John Jeffs
C/- Post Office
Lenswood
South Australia
5240
Mob: 0409 289 019
Fax: 08 8289 5531
Email: johnjeffs@westnet.com.au
------------------------------
Subject: Ice Cider
From: Celia Congdon <crrbc@comcast.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 11:02:46 -0800
Dear Cider Digest,
I noticed from somewhere that you can make ice cider using frozen
cider. I have some in the freezer from our apple pressing.
Do I concentrate it using the frozen distillation process and then
put the concentrate through fermentation?
Any suggestions welcome.
Thanks,
Celia
Vashon Island, WA
------------------------------
Subject: Lactose
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:59:21 +0000
Pietro Toniolo wrote:
> I want to add some sweetness to my newly fermented cider, a bit too dry
> and acidic. I have bought some lactose, and I know my yeasts are not
> going to ferment it....... I don't know how much lactose to add.
Lactose is only one-fifth as sweet as sucrose (cane or beet sugar). So
if you would normally add 1 - 2% sucrose to a dry cider to sweeten it,
you will need 5 - 10% lactose to obtain an equivalent sweetness. Quite a
lot!
Also, the yeast will not ferment lactose, but malo-lactic bacteria will.
If you get a malo-lactic fermentation (MLF) in your cider during
maturation, that lactose may disappear to be replaced with lactic acid.
That is what happens in yoghurt manufacture and may not taste very nice
at such high levels in a cider.
> What is in your experience the effect
> of aging and carbonation on the (non-fermentable) sweetness of a cider?
> That is: shoud I stay now on the sweet side or not?
During ageing one thing that may happen is the loss of malic acid to
lactic acid by MLF. This will cut the perceived acidity by a half and so
the perceived sweetness of the cider will rise. As regards carbonation,
increasing carbonation is generally perceived as more acidic (therefore
less sweet).
I suggest you (a) wait until mid summer when malo-lactic activity will
be complete and (b) do some trial carbonations in a Sodastream or
equivalent.
> And I have another question... here in Italy many persons have lactose
> intolerance, around 50% of the poulation; not me, anyway. Do you think
> that the amount of lactose added to my cider can be disturbing to them?
Most of humankind has lactose intolerance when adult (not the same as
milk allergy). It is only those of us of Northern European (dairying)
ancestry who retain the ability to metabolise lactose when adult.
Regular liquid milk contains about 4% lactose. Although the effects vary
widely, many people with lactose intolerance could not comfortably
consume a pint of milk without unpleasant side-effects. The cider you
propose to sweeten will contain 5 - 10% lactose. Those people will have
a real difficulty with a pint of your cider. Some people with lactose
intolerance who have to live in a lactose-consuming society now take
lactase enzymes to help them with this problem. There is a good
discussion of this at http://www.foodreactions.co.uk/intolerance/lactose/
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Lactose (and tannin)
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 20:22:16 -0700 (MST)
Pietro Toniolo <ptoniolo.do_not@spam_me.tin.it> wrote:
> I want to add some sweetness to my newly fermented cider, a bit too dry
> and acidic. I have bought some lactose, and I know my yeasts are not
> going to ferment it.
>
> Thus, I am going to bottle my cider with some glucose for
> priming/carbonation, a teaspoon of tannin to add some sharpness, but I
> don't know how much lactose to add...
Hold on. A teaspoon of tannin to what quantity of cider?
I don't know what you have for tannin in Italy, but that which is available
to the amateur in the US is rather mean stuff, and relative to our typical
batch size (5 US gal or 19 liters) I'd use no more than a quarter teaspoon
(1.25 ml).
As for lactose: the trouble is that it is not particularly sweet, but it
contributes to mouthfeel. I've not used it in cider, only in beers, but
there the sense is to give a somewhat "full" mouthfeel. I don't know how
to describe it properly, other than somehow the opposite of "thin", but
not always in a positive sense. If I were to try it in a cider I would
definitely apply it only to part of the batch, and compare.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1371
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