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Cider Digest #1417
Subject: Cider Digest #1417, 30 October 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1417 30 October 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #1416, 25 October 2007 (Stephen Wood)
'wild' yeast isn't quite so wild (Claude Jolicoeur)
Frequin Tardive de la Sartha (Claude Jolicoeur)
RE: Disposal for grinding (Tim Bray)
Wild Yeast ("Richard")
wild yeast (circle mouse)
Re: Two short-courses at Cornell (Ian Merwin)
garbage disposer ("David Lee")
Blending apple (Jack O Feil)
Re: 2007 Great Lakes Old World Syder Competition ("Gary Awdey")
perry, pears (and regionalism again) (Dick Dunn)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1416, 25 October 2007
From: Stephen Wood <swood@povertylaneorchards.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 13:41:00 -0400
For what it's worth:
Wild yeasts: The truly wild yeasts present on the skins of apples (or
grapes, for that matter) are not usually capable of fermenting the must to
dryness. Meanwhile, the stinks we all try to avoid are often a result of
struggling yeast, which is what most truly wild yeasts are. The cideries
and wineries that successfully use 'wild' yeasts are usually old
establishments, long ago colonized by a successful yeast (on the bins,
press, walls, etc.), which jumps into the juice and does its business. The
rest of us are fooling ourselves if we think that we can rely on wild yeasts
to produce a consistently pleasant cider. We use UCD 395 (Pasteur Champagne
yeast), which is a common primary fermenter for bubbly wine. It runs to
dryness like a juggernaut, doesn't mind cold, doesn't struggle (so doesn't
produce much in the way of H2S), and doesn't have any identifiable
organoleptic character. We like it because we want the flavors and aromas
of our ciders to come from the fruit, not from the yeast (or its death-throe
farts). If you want to avoid commercial yeasts, you should probably expand
on Andrew's notion and smear the walls of your place with your lees. If you
decide to do that, though, leave the microscope in the cupboard unless you
want a panic attack.
Vinegar: Juice can't go 'straight to vinegar' without becoming alcoholic
first. There's nothing in a fresh apple or its juice that any acetobacter
likes to eat. They eat alcohol.
Steve Wood.
------------------------------
Subject: 'wild' yeast isn't quite so wild
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 15:32:02 -0400
In Cider Digest #1416, 25 October 2007, McGonegal, Charles P wrote:
>I have a sneaking
>suspicion that one reason why traditional cider making areas (European)
>have decent luck with wild yeasts is that lees have been put back into
>the orchards for a few hundred years. Could it be that 'wild' isn't
>quite so wild anymore?
>
>How long would it take to 'seed' an orchard with D254, I wonder?
I would tend to agree with you, Charles. I also suspect that the yeast one
usually uses end up colonizing the orchard, the press, the cider room, etc.
The more it goes, the more easily my ciders start by themself without
inoculation. I almost exclusively use EC1018, and some batches are on
"wild" yeast. I find it very difficult to taste a difference. The
inoculated batches do start more rapidly however.
Claude
------------------------------
Subject: Frequin Tardive de la Sartha
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 16:44:31 -0400
In Cider Digest #1416, 25 October 2007, McGonegal, Charles P wrote:
>And while I'm thinking of digest stuff - for the people interested in
>Kingston Black, and who are growing their own - try Frequin Tardive de
>la Sartha. It's got the phenolic character of the KBs, a good dose of
>the 'densely fruity' character of Domaine and St. Martin, and comes into
>fruit a whole lot earlier. At least for me. Better fresh than sweated.
Charles,
In that short paragraph, you mention 3 French cider variaties which I was
not aware had been imported in N.America.
I had a look in my book by Fleckinger (Pommiers a cidre, varietes de
France) - there are many Frequin mentioned but not the Frequin tardive de
la Sarthe - could it be a synonym? Do you know more about it?
And there are 2 Domaine listed : Domaines du Calvados and Domaines de
l'Eure. Do you know if yours is one of these two?
In any case, I would be interested to learn more on how these varieties
perform.
Claude
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Disposal for grinding
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 15:15:54 -0700
Christian,
I thought about trying to enlarge the holes in the screen on my
disposal, but found an easier way to get better pomace. I made a wooden
"rammer" to push the apples through the grinder faster. This works
extremely well, increasing the speed of the operation and producing a
decently "grainy" pulp - pieces about the size of an apple seed or a
little larger, on average.
My rammer started as a piece of 4x4 lumber about 18" long. I cut it to
an octagon shape, sized so the distance across the diagonals (the
outside diameter of the octagon) is the same as the inside diameter of
the disposal throat at the narrowest point. Shave or sand the corners
off so it slides easily into the grinder. I cut one end down to make a
handle, and smoothed that off so it is easier to use. You want to shape
the "working" end so there is a raised central nub that will contact the
spindle of the grinder mechanism before the wood hits the teeth. (I let
the grinder do this during use, but it was a bit nerve-wracking.)
Now I just fill the sink about half full of apples, and use the rammer
to push them through the grinder as fast as possible without bogging
down the motor. With a little practice you learn the optimum rate - the
fastest you can push apples through without bogging down the motor to
the point where it overheats. Bigger motors help - I think mine is a
(nominal) 3/4 HP, and I rarely trip the thermal sensor. I never use
water or juice when grinding - that always results in a sauce rather
than a pulp.
Cheers,
Tim
------------------------------
Subject: Wild Yeast
From: "Richard" <rhanderson@centurytel.net>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 17:29:39 -0700
I remember trying to make cider relying on "wild yeast", it took a long time
to get going, although low temperatures may have been a factor.
My theory is that we North Americans do not have the flora which the
orchards in Europe and the UK do, my orchard planted in the mid 90's
replacing a 100 year old orchard, cannot compare with land which has been
used for agriculture for hundreds if not thousands of years.
The idea of using cider or even wine lees is interesting, lees are messy,
why not just hydrate some yeast and spray it in the orchard when the
temperatures and moisture content is accommodating. Better yet, perhaps a
mix of yeasts. Any ideas on what this mix would be? You can certainly buy a
number of cultured yeasts, but can you buy spoors of wild yeast?
------------------------------
Subject: wild yeast
From: circle mouse <circlemouse@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 18:21:44 -0700 (PDT)
on the wild yeast topic, I've entirely quit adding yeast to my cider
because I've been so pleased with wild fermentation. I think my situation
is a little bit different than the other folks in the discussion so
far, though. I work at a farm. we buy bins of seconds to press for
fresh juice. gravensteins early, then jonagolds. obviously not prime
cider apples. I fill up a carboy now and then and just let it hang
around for a while. I don't do any sulphiting, but the apples have been
washed before we buy them, which presumably kills any organisms living
on the outside. anyhow, I'm not winning any awards, but it's quick and
easy and tasty and it has a certain Luddite appeal.
tel
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Two short-courses at Cornell
From: Ian Merwin <im13@cornell.edu>
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 21:04:55 -0400
Cider folks-
This is a first announcement for a distillation workshop taught by experts
from Christian CARL GMBH, and a second announcement for the short-course
on Intermediate/Advanced cidermaking (fermented types) that will be taught
in Geneva NY the first week of December this year, by Dr. Peter Mitchell.
The dates are Dec. 3rd for the distillation workshop, and Dec. 4-6th
for the cider-making shortcourse. The costs will be $US 625 per person
for the cider course, and $190 per person for the distillation workshop,
and the course outlines for each follow. If these outlines do not come
across legibly on the listserve (or if our host does not want to clutter
the listserve), you can contact me directly (im13@cornell.edu) and I will
send you the full attachments for both these short-courses below.
*******************************
Department of Food Science & Technology Presents: Dr. Peter Mitchell
Cider Production- Building Expertise
December 4 - 6, 2007
NYS Agricultural Experiment Station
=46ood Research Lab
630 W. North Street
Geneva, NY 14456
Tuesday, December 4, 2007
08.30 - 08.45 Registration
08.45 - 9.00 Introduction & Background
09.00 - 10.30 Principals & Practices of
Commercial Production: Planning for production.
Plant Layout & Design - Principles of Development
of marketing and business plans for cider
production
10.45 - 12.15 Cider Microbiology (I): Cider
yeasts and bacteria. Microbial contamination &
spoilage
12.15 - 1.15 Lunch
01.15 - 02.15 Product Development (I): NPD in
cider production. Product recipes &
specifications
02.15 - 04.30 Practical: New Product Development
04:30 - 05.30 Key Processes & Technologies for Cider Production: Filtration
Wednesday, December 5, 2007
08.30 - 10.00 Cider Microbiology (II)
=46ermentation yeast management & nutrition.
Application & management of malo-lactic
fermentation in cider production
10.15 - 11.15 Cider Microbiology (III):
Microbiological QC methods and application.
11.30 - 12.30 Practical: Sensory Evaluation of
Cider & Perry (1): Product profiling.
Organoleptic faults.
12.30 - 01.30 Lunch
04.30 - 05.30 Practical: NPD (Cont).
Application of laboratory analytical methods
04.30 - 05.30 Product Development (II):
In-bottle ermentation and bottle-conditioned
products.
Thursday, December 6, 2007
08.30 - 09.30 Microbiological Control in Cider
Production (I): Chemical preservation and the use
of SO2.
09.45 - 11.00 Microbiological Control in Cider
Production (II): Chemical preservation and the
use of SO2.
11.00 - 12.15 Practical: Sensory Evaluation of
Cider & Perry (II). Product profiling.
Organoleptic faults.
12.15 - 01.15 Lunch
01.15 - 02.15 Microbiological Control in Cider
Production (III): Pasteurization and sterile
filtration.
02.30 - 03.30 Workshop: Quality Assurance:
Specification of key Critical & Quality Control
Points.
03.30 - 04.30 Practical: Sensory Evaluation of
Cider & Perry (III): Consumer evaluation
4.30 - 05.00 Summary
Note the following:
o A comprehensive course booklet will be provided, but please also bring
note-taking material.
o Please bring any samples of cider or perry you have for use in the
sensory analysis sessions.
o If you have a laboratory coat and safety goggles, please bring them with you.
o It is important that you do not use perfume and any strong-smelling
cosmetics, deodorants or soap on the days of the course.
Instructor: Peter Mitchell from Mitchell Food & Drink, Ltd. United Kingdom is
a highly qualified and internationally recognized expert in cider and perry
making, with over 20 years of experience and an award-winning producer in
his own right.
Hosted By: Dr. Olga Padilla-Zakour, Associate Professor of Food Processing
and Dr. Ian Merwin, Professor of Horticulture & International Agriculture
Limited to 20 attendees - Please register early!
If you have any questions and/or comments please call Nancy Long at
315-787-2288 between the hours of 08.30 am and 01.00 pm or email her
at NPL1@nysaes.cornell.edu
***********************************************
=46or those who may be interested in a more
spirited short-course, we are also offering an
Artisan Distillation workshop earlier that same
week, with hands-on practice:
"Artisan Distilling Workshop at Geneva Experiment Station"
One-Day Short Course on Monday, December 3, 2007
Offered by the NYS Experiment Station in Geneva
and
Christian CARL Ing. GmbH
G=F6ppingen, Germany
SPEAKERS:
Alexander Plank, Christian CARL GmbH, Germany
Nicolas Haase, Brewing & Distilling Technologies, Corp.
Location: New York State Agricultural Experiment Station, Geneva
=46ood Research Laboratory, Room 251 (Conference Room, 2nd floor)
AGENDA:
ONE DAY SHORT COURSE on Monday, December 3, 2007
Morning -
8:30 - 9:00 Registration and check-in (refreshment provided)
9:00 - 9:15 Introduction - Ben Gavitt
(NYSAES), Nicolas Haase, Alexander Plank
9:15 - 12:00 Theoretical Background Seminar - Alexander Plank
Basics of Distillation & Distillery Systems Applications
- - distillery designs - what's behind the traditions & concepts
(10 minute break)
- - distillery technology applications for
apple and wine brandies, eau-de-vie, grappa,
whiskey, rum, vodka
12:00 - 12:45 Lunch break - meal provided
Afternoon -
12:45 - 5:00 Demonstrations of batch
distillation - Nicolas Haase & Alexander Plank:
- - distilling apple cider on a 120 liter copper pot still
- - explanations of process control to produce quality spirits
- - sensory evaluation of head, heart and tail cuts, Q&A
Further "in depth" discussions & presentation:
- - capacity considerations and calculations
- - artisan distillery start up considerations
Group and individual question and answer opportunities throughout the day.
Approx. at 5 pm the Workshop will come to a close.
Price: $ 170.00 - Members of NYS Wine Grape Foundation. All others - $ 190.00.
Includes hand-outs, morning refreshments and lunch.
Registration Details:
Registration must include payment by November 21, 2007.
Make check or money order payable to "NYSAES".
Register by November 21, 2007.
Send check or money order to:
Nancy Long, Phone: (315)
787-2288; E-mail: NPL1@cornell.edu
Please see enclosed registration form and register by November 21, 2007.
Space is limited - Please register early!
- --
(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((!)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Ian A. Merwin, PhD
Prof. of Horticulture & International Agriculture
118 Plant Science Bldg
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY, USA, 14853
Telephone: 607-255-1777
<www.hort.cornell.edu/department/faculty/merwin/index.htm>
------------------------------
Subject: garbage disposer
From: "David Lee" <dave@dleeco.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 18:05:27 -0400
Subject: Disposal for grinding
From: "Christian Layke" <CLayke@wri.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:35:49 -0400
We have modified the all stainless disposer we use by reducing the
diameter of the plate about ½", and slightly bending the tabs that
create the holes at the perimeter inward, this also required the bottom
corner of the hammers to be filed off to clear the tabs. I also added
some small stainless blades that stick upward to slice the apples before
they reach the hammers. Can grind a bushel in about 4 or 5 min. Dave
Lee
------------------------------
Subject: Blending apple
From: Jack O Feil <feilorchards@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 00:06:57 -0800
I am a small acreage commercial fruit grower here in Central Washington
State and also operate a roadside fruit stand. This year I have had a
number of inquiries for hard cider apples. I do have lots (tons)of # two
desert apples but would like to be able to provide apples to blend with
the deserts that would make a decent cider. I do have an assortment of
cider varieties (one tree of each), Brown's Apple,Domains, Court Royal,
Yarlington Mill, Fox whelp, Stoke Red, Sweet Alford, Tremlett's
Bitter,Kingston Black and Jersey Chisel along with American Porter's
Perfection and Campfield and Siberian Crabs. What I intend to do is graft
some of my desert varieties to cider varieties, but before I do, I need
to know before grafting what will work instead of the time consuming
(years) trial and error.
Your thoughts will be appreciated. Jack in Wenatchee, Washington.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: 2007 Great Lakes Old World Syder Competition
From: "Gary Awdey" <gawdey@att.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 06:24:01 -0500
Anyone thinking of sending entries to the 2007 Great Lakes Old World Syder
Competition (information at
http://www.michiganbeerguide.com/pdf/2007GLOWSEntry.pdf) and also planning
to attend Ciderday in Massachusetts this coming weekend (www.ciderday.org)
might want to consider bringing entries to Ciderday. Once again I'll be
shuttling GLOWS entries from Massachussetts to Michigan (with temporary
storage in my cellar in New York). It's a good way save on shipping cost .
Care is taken to ensure that entries are transported and stored under cool
conditions.
Gary Awdey
Eden, New York
gawdey@att.net
------------------------------
Subject: perry, pears (and regionalism again)
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:07:04 -0600
I had meant to get back to this a lot sooner; perhaps the topic is stale
but I believe Mike Beck misunderstood some of my points about the potential
for perry in the US.
back in CD 1405, Mike wrote (about the Great Lakes "region"):
>...It is not out of the question for the Great Lakes to be the cradle of
> something like this. Take for instance the Honey Crisp Apple...
I agree that some areas around the Great Lakes -could- produce good perry.
But we don't know yet. It's a matter of whether perry pears will do well;
the success of Honey Crisp won't tell us about that.
Charles McGonegal pointed out the risks and losses of fireblight in your
region, mentioned one novel problem with his perry pears, and also
indicated that the perry pears he's been using so far in his products have
actually come from the Northwest.
What we know about growing the English perry pear varieties is, first and
foremost, that they are preferably grown in a relatively small area of
the Three Counties in England. There is some lore suggesting that there
are lots of places they -don't- grow well (or at least don't produce fruit
of good character for perry). Second, we know from a couple examples that
these varieties can do well in the Pacific Northwest. We don't know
whether they'll succeed in Michigan, or in Colorado (etc.). If they do
best with dry air and lots of sun, I win. If they don't like our climate
here, I lose and maybe you win if they like your climate.
But really my point is that we just don't know yet! It's not helpful to
point to success with other fruits; the pears don't care. Nor do they care
what our tourist boards do.
Mike also raised this objection:
> Parts of the Great Lakes can grow crops in quantity that few others can.
> To say that it is equal to half the nation is just plain silly...
But that's not what I said, and certainly not what I meant. I said:
>...Is the climate really good for -perry- pears? East Lansing
> ain't May Hill, y'know. More to the point, if Michigan and Wisconsin are
> good, so is about half the US!
What I mean is that about half of the US is potentially as good for growing
perry pears as Michigan. Your climate isn't particularly close to what
it's like in England where we know the pears do well. So if you can grow
perry pears successfully, anybody with climate/weather characteristics
somewhere between yours and mid/western England might be able to do as
well or better than you can. The central part of western Colorado has a
better chance (theoretically!) than you do, based on climate considerations.
(Yes I'm ignoring soil considerations; those must be factored in too before
we understand where perry pears really might do well.)
and...
> The Great Lakes has Micro-Climate and soils that can not be duplicated
> anywhere else.
But this is just as true for Colorado (for example)! You'll not find any
alpine tundra in Michigan. I chose that specifically because it's a silly
example, to illustrate that it's not the variety of climates and soils that
matters; it's whether you've got the -right- ones.
There's potential for growing good perry pears over a large part of the US.
But the bottom line remains: We don't KNOW (yet) where they'll do well.
And it's likely to be a long time before we do know.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1417
*************************
