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Cider Digest #1413
Subject: Cider Digest #1413, 6 October 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1413 6 October 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Home-made grinder (Andrew Lea)
Film Yeast (Andrew Lea)
RE: Film Yeasts ("McGonegal, Charles P")
Home Grinder (Donald Davenport)
RE: Pouring Cider ("Richard Anderson")
RE: Yeast Film ("Richard Anderson")
trees and tannin (wilf how)
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Subject: Home-made grinder
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:56:52 +0100
Craig Teerlink wrote:
> I am a novice cider maker with a home operation. I am trying to find an
> inexpensive way to grind apples. I have heard online about people using
> an old garbage disposal rigged up to grind the apples. Does anyone have
> any experience with this method in terms of time efficiency and the
> quality of the end product?
I've never used one myself, but this topic was discussed at great length
some years ago on the Digest. For a summary, see my website under the
topic "making a press (and a mill)". For the full discussion, see the CD
archives for Jan / Feb 1999.
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Film Yeast
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:37:36 +0100
Mike Faul wrote:
> I have spent a bit of time trying to figure out why some of my ciders end up
> with the surface film we have discussed in the past and others do not. I
> have also been trying to determine not only what the cause is but how to
> prevent it in the future.
You really would save yourself a lot of trouble and expense by using SO2
in the stored cider. You might still get a little film yeast but it
shouldn't be anywhere near so bad. Don't think of of it as a chemical,
rather as a traditional aid to good practice. Use sulfur candles in the
tanks before filling if you prefer.
You talked of UV sterilisation, but do you know it works for this
application? My understanding was that it was fairly ineffective against
yeasts.
Have you thought of good old CO2 instead of argon? OK it dissolves in
the cider, but that's no bad thing, and it's much heavier than air so it
tends to sit on the surface just where the film yeast would be growing.
I don't know for certain but I'd imagine CO2 is actually toxic to film
yeast in addition to its blanketing effect, whereas argon isn't.
Finally, the Devil's Advocate says you should ask yourself if you to
need to worry at all! You are already doing lots of the right things to
keep the film yeasts at low levels. Do you know for sure it's really
having an adverse effect on your ciders?
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Film Yeasts
From: "McGonegal, Charles P" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:54:57 -0400
Mike, I've had similar experiences with film yeasts, though I haven't
tried quite any many solutions as you have. One thing that helped a lot
with a problem tank - tightening the locking ring. I use 550 gal SS
IBCs (intermediate bulk containers - big steel shipping tanks). They
have a 23" 'manway' on the top with a gasket and ring clamp almost
identical to those found on open-head 55 gal drums. I went back and
checked these the last time film yeasts came up on the CD - and a couple
were not tight enough - I think I was getting a lot of air leakage at
that point. I adjusted a couple of bolts in the locking mechanism and
saw a big decrease in film yeast development.
I wonder if sun on the top of the tank might cause more trouble from the
daily expansion and contraction of the headspace gas than from just the
temperature.
Variable capacity tanks have troubles, too. You have to watch that
gasket like a hawk. It's also _very_ easy to get the upper surface (of
the gasket, at least) wet when lowering the lid down - then you get
molds growing on the gasket and line where it seals to the tank.
Charles
AEppelTreow
------------------------------
Subject: Home Grinder
From: Donald Davenport <djdavenport@earthlink.net>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:07:54 -0600
Several of us over here in New Mexico have had good success with a
consumer-grade disposal system. It grinds the apples to a very
consistent pommace that easily yield the 2-3 gallons per bushel in
our little hydraulic pack press.
As far as I know, the idea was put forth by Don Yellman--a
wonderfully knowledgeable (and occasionally cranky) hobbyist living
in Virginia--and I've heard the system since referred to as "The
Yellman Grinder." A fitting homage.
A couple of points need to be made, however.
"Old" disposal is a really bad idea. You need a brand new,
dedicated, stainless steel unit of sufficient horsepower. I use a
ISE 555S, which has a motor rated at 3/4 hp.
On larger diameter apples, you'll have to quarter them to get them to
fit through the mouth of the grinder.
Since you're asking a machine with a short duty cycle to work for
longer duration, give it frequent breaks. Every 10 minutes or so.
Otherwise, you'll pop the thermal breaker and you'll have to wait
15-20 minutes for it to cool down enough to reset.
Finally, there was some discussion (initiated by me, if I remember
right) about the pros and cons of having a system that grinds pips as
well as anything else. There was some concern about the toxicity of
apple seeds (apparently no hard science on this to indicate that the
occasional ground seed even shows up on the toxicity radar) and/or
off-flavors from the seeds being introduced. So, if either of those
are concerns, proceed at your own risk.
If you have to quarter your apples to get them to fit into the
grinder, I suppose you could take a second and core them as well.
However, in doing a visual inspection on the grinder's scat, I found
that many, many seeds make it through intact. Other are merely
nicked. Can't say how many, if any, are completely pulverized.
So, yes, a disposal--the right disposal--can do a really fine job.
At least, it certainly works well for me.
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Pouring Cider
From: "Richard Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 10:51:23 -0700
In regards to pouring cider at Wine Shows, I have had the same experience as
Charles McGonegal. First, you are often the only cider at the show. We
poured cider at Taste Washington for several years: 400 wines, 1 cider. It
was fun but I think beyond a clash of cultures, wine and cider on the palate
do not work well. One thing that we did was get a table next to the seafood
bar and get the people coming in for seafood, particularly with a glass of
red wine to rinse and clean their palate with a dry cider, but as Charles
said many would standoff or look aside. I have quit going to wine shows, it
is not worth the entry fee and cider just seems to get lost in the crowd.
Craft Beer shows are much more productive, first there are a number of
attendees who do not care for beer that much but have come as dates etc. We
have a fine time introducing them to cider and many are prefer cider to
beer. The Beer crowd often comes by to learn a bit about cider and they use
cider to clean their palates, particularly after drink heavy, sweet beers.
In my mind, Beer Shows are a much better marketing opportunity for cider and
considering that our cider is retailed in the beer cooler this make sense.
One rant I have is that as a Washington State winery we are assessed for
each liter of cider a fee to promote wine. My joke is that the Wine
Commission folks do not know how to spell cider. I have requested to
transfer the newly formed Craft Beer commission and pay the beer assessment,
but I think this request is falling of deaf ears.
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Yeast Film
From: "Richard Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 11:21:34 -0700
All the solutions mentioned are likely to help, but I would encourage you to
invest in variable capacity stainless steel, they eliminate light, airspace
and are easy to maintain. Initially, we invested in a number of plastic
tanks and resisted going to stainless steel. As we scaled up, I found
plastic tanks hard to clean and now use them as a last resort for fermenting
and short-term storage. We purchased standard SS VC tanks sold for winery
use and can clean them quickly for refilling when racking etc. I realize
with the falling dollar, these tanks often made in Italy are becoming more
expensive but they likely have a good resale value should you need to scale
up. It is big investment for a small cidery but consider, would you rather
be buying oak barrels?
------------------------------
Subject: trees and tannin
From: wilf how <wilf1979@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 17:09:29 +0100 (BST)
Hello
I have been reading the digest with interest and
making cider for a couple of seasons. We have recently
moved house and now have a small garden we have room
for one or maybe two trees.
Currently I have been scrounging apples from any
source I can get they primarily consist of eaters,
cookers and crabs. I would like to achieve a greater
tannin level in the cider and was thinking along the
lines of a bitter sweet as acid is something I have in
abundance (the crabs don't have a lot of tannin
either)
I like in Newcastle Upon Tyne (UK) and have got a
fairly heavy clay soil. We're a good bit further
north than traditional apple country.
Dabinett is one apple that gets a lot of praise on the
digest. Are there any other suggestions that would be
ok with the soil and the location? Does the clay
affect what rootstock I can use as I imagine a dwarf
type would be best (there isn't that much room).
Is there any technique that you can use to help
extract what little tannin there is from the apples?
Many thanks
Wilf How
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1413
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