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Cider Digest #1385
Subject: Cider Digest #1385, 17 May 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1385 17 May 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
crab apple experiment ("gagnond")
RE: Cider Digest #1384, 11 May 2007 ("Richard Anderson")
Origin of Cultivars ("McGonegal, Charles P")
Origin of Cultivars - Clarification ("shawn carney")
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Subject: crab apple experiment
From: "gagnond" <gagnond@endirect.qc.ca>
Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 12:28:42 -0500
I fermented crab apple (dolgo) in 2005 september, kept the cider until
january 2007, and to see if yeast (lalvin 1118) was still alive added
1/2 teaspoon sugar/bottle (341ml) let it stand until last week .
Resulting cider was quite sparkling, flowing lightly over the bottle,
eventhough very acidic, pretty good. Just wondering how long yeast can
survive............Denis Quebec
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Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1384, 11 May 2007
From: "Richard Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Sat, 12 May 2007 20:52:44 -0700
Charles wrote...
So I'd like to take a different approach to this (admittedly long term
and possibly hopeless) project.
First - assemble a public database of cultivars tagged by geography of
origin. So when someone asks 'I want to make a Great Lakes cider.' (or
Mid-Atlantic, or Maritime Provinces, or Ozark/Southern Midwest), they'll
have a resource to research and say 'Ah, I start with _these_ apples.'
Second - encourage the production there of (both the cider and the
apples).
Third - recognize and promote excellent examples - and what we learn
about regional ciders in step two.
.....
I would like to second this. I agree that in North America we do not make
"English" or "French" style cider even if we use the same cultivars or
emulate the methods. Terroir rules it out and who want to have their cider
called "Common"? Good North American ciders are anything but common.
My though would be to come up with a matrix. One Dimension would be the
cultivars. This might consist of categories like "Traditional Cider Apples",
"Heirloom Apples" and "Market Apples".
The second dimension would consist of cider processes and I offer the
following.
Ferment-Dry
Ferment-With Residual Sweetness
Ferment-Keeved
Ferment-Natural Yeast
Ferment-Commercial Yeast
Back Sweeten
Pasteurized
Unpasteurized
Flavor Adjuncts
Other?
At each intersection there would be an outcome and as you can see this
becomes very complicated but interesting project. I can see a lot of you
cringing at the thought. Add "Organic" and "Varital" and you get additional
dimensions. The Rubric Cube of Cider.
------------------------------
Subject: Origin of Cultivars
From: "McGonegal, Charles P" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 10:44:37 -0500
Thanks for the suggested texts - I have a number of them already
(including Coxe - but not Calhoun or Stilphen) - and will put the others
on my wish list.
I think that the suggestion of orchard society publications is a good
one to add to the 'haystack' category. I've previously looked at the
Ark of Taste apple list - but didn't find more than the list of names -
is more info supposed to be available?
Regarding Ben's question : Is Wealthy, being a seedling of a Maine tree
planted, discovered, selected and propagated in Minnesota, An Upper
Great Lakes apple, or a New England apple? I think you can tell that I
vote for Great Lakes.
That also illustrates the problem of using nursery catalogs - you/we
will need to use catalogs of small, regional nurseries from the days
when nurseries marketed cultivars selected for performance by region -
rather than marketing nationally. (Obviously I've had the chance to
hear Tom Burford speak to this subject.)
Whoops - there's one more source - Tom, himself. Likewise, any
remaining 'old men of apples'. The one I knew in Michigan is gone now.
At least one kind person has sent me a database. I'll pool that with
mine and put some kind of survey out on the web to start collecting
cultivar, region, use, citiation info. I think it's important that we
collect the bibliography, too.
Charles
------------------------------
Subject: Origin of Cultivars - Clarification
From: "shawn carney" <scarney88@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:37:35 -0600
Charles clarified by writing:
"First - assemble a public database of cultivars tagged by geography of
origin. So when someone asks 'I want to make a Great Lakes cider.' (or
Mid-Atlantic, or Maritime Provinces, or Ozark/Southern Midwest), they'll
have a resource to research and say 'Ah, I start with _these_ apples.'"
I think it?s a great idea but are you trying to define cider regions from
scratch (for example the Great Lakes cider region was started in 2007 by
Charles McGonegal) using apples that where grown there many years ago or are
you trying to fabricate some sort of cider history that more than likely
didn?t exist in that region many years ago using apples that where grown
there in the past? I can?t imagine you?re suggesting 100 years ago or so
the Great Lakes area (from NY to Minnesota) had a common cider style. Not
to mention Canadian cider makers around the Great Lakes.
Shawn Carney
------------------------------
From: Steury and Noel family <steurynoel@mail.potlatch.com>
Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 21:27:41 -0700
For those of you interested in Norman cider, I can now highly
recommend the annual AOC (Apellation Origine Controlle) products
festival in Cambremer, at the heart of the Pays d'Auge in Calvados,
the first week of May. In spite of it being absolutely irresponsible
(at least a hundred (or 2, ouch) of our trees will go unpruned this
year), we couldn't resist. We've been to Cambremer, and the
surrounding Route de Cidre, before, but we only recently learned of
the festival.
Skipping over most of the details, it is absolutely fabulous. You
buy a glass Saturday morning and spend the rest of the weekend
sampling at the booths of the 25 or so AOC cider and Calvados makers
in attendance. And sampling the AOC cheese (Livarot, Camembert, Pont
Leveque?), saucisson, grilled Andouille, butter, etc., etc. The
Bayeux hog is king, and the large representative is suitably attended
by women in purple gowns as it wanders through the crowd. There is a
portable still operating, haute tige (high stem) grafting
demonstrations, and much more. It really is quite wonderful.
We were unbelievably lucky to hook up with a small group of Randonees
(sorry about my spelling, I'm sure), the French walking club, and
joined them on a 8 km. stroll, which included a lecture by an ag
department representative on the virtues of haute tige vs. basse
(closer and more intense, relatively) tige orchard and a guided tour
of the Grandvall estate by M. Grandvall himself, who, my wife and
agree in a very rare instance, makes the best of the many very fine
Pays d'Auge ciders.
We also joined a remarkable Camembert and cider (from both Normandy
and Brittany) tasting one evening.
We spent the rest of the week eating and sampling ciders, visiting
local cidermakers, and accepting how much we have yet to learn before
we go commercial. If you're a fan of pastoral landscape and agrarian
sensibility, this is the definitive version. Also, both the AOC and
regular farmhouse Calvadoses are revelatory. If all you've ever
sampled are the mid-price Calvados available in this country
(Boulard, even Huet), forget you ever tried them. The Pays d'Auge
Calvados is as much a product of the terroir as the cider.
If you're a fan of Norman cider, it is heaven. (Am I repeating
myself?) One caveat, though, I'm fortunate that my wife's French is
solid enough to get us by. You don't hear much English around
Cambremer, except from the occasional visiting Brit. You can get by
with my rudimentary French, but it sure helps to have someone along
who can actually converse. None of the farmer cidermakers speak any
English. But if you can understand them, they are absolutely
eloquent regarding apples and cider.
- --
Tim Steury and Diane Noel
1021 McBride Road
Potlatch, ID 83855
208.875.0804
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End of Cider Digest #1385
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