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Cider Digest #1409
Subject: Cider Digest #1409, 15 September 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1409 15 September 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #1408, 8 September 2007 (John Ross)
Malo-lactic flavours (Andrew Lea)
scaling up - awkward intermediate step (Dick Dunn)
Kazak Apples ("Margevicius, Joe")
Press racks availability. ("Mark Johnson")
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1408, 8 September 2007
From: John Ross <johnross@halcyon.com>
Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 15:02:05 -0700
At 9/8/2007 01:35 PM, Dick Dunn wrote:
>How important is it to have sweeter ciders just to please more palates,
>even if a cidery would rather focus on dry ciders? Another way to ask
>the question, in a broader sense, is How idiosyncratic can a cidermaker's
>overall set of products be? If you want to focus on particular style(s),
>is it a mistake not to have other styles...or is it a mistake to let
>yourself be -distracted- by styles other than what you're trying to focus
>on? And how does selling from a tasting room affect that, in positive or
>negative ways?
My experience is admittedly limited, but working at a festival this
summer, pouring three of Richard Anderson's Westcott Bay ciders and
two of Drew Zimmerman's Red Barn ciders, it seemed as if the choice
of several types, ranging from dry to sweet, changed the psychology
of sampling.
When a visitor samples just one cider, often with no prior
experience, the choice is "do I like this stuff or not?" and the
answer is often "No." But when you offer several distinctly different
products, the question becomes "which one do I like best?" It might
be dry, sweet or something in between, but the contrast is enough to
convince a lot of people to buy a bottle or more of the one they liked.
It's my impression that the total sales volume with more than one
style will be greater than with just one product. But whether that
justifies the added cost of producing and packaging multiple products
is another question altogether.
John Ross
Seattle
------------------------------
Subject: Malo-lactic flavours
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 10:55:28 +0100
Rich and Dick wrote
>
>> ...I make our ciders almost exclusively from
>> traditional bittersweets and bittersharps but never achieve the smoky
>> flavors which some English style ciders have. In part, I think this is due
>> to the lack of malolactic fermentation, which does not occur naturally or
>> induced by the addition of a ML culture...
>
> Sure, some of those flavors will come from ML. Are you saying you can't
> even get MLF with a culture, or that if you use the culture you still don't
> get the flavors?
Well Rich, for what it's worth I find it really difficult to get the
smoky flavours too. And as you know I use an English bittersweet / sharp
blend and I'm only 100 miles east of their home territory! When I used
a commercial ML culture all the malic went to lactic but there was no
formation of spicy aromas. I get a bit closer when I allow a natural MLF
to take place (which I do every year) but it is nowhere near as intense
as I'd expect. For instance, a new commercial cider on the market here,
produced by Knights near Malvern for the Duchy Originals brand, has a
very pronounced spiciness (actually verging towards the 'barnyard' end).
My feeling (based on personal experience and the biochemistry of the
whole thing) is that you don't just need the MLF itself, it's the
side-reactions of individual strains of bacteria which make the
difference. And there is certainly good evidence that those bacteria
can live in the pores of old oak barrels and can re-inoculate each new
charge of cider, for those who use them. That is now believed to be the
major benefit (under favourable conditions) of ageing cider in wood.
Andrew
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: scaling up - awkward intermediate step
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 01:33:33 -0600
How do you scale up the quantity of cider you make? If you're making it at
home, likely you use a 5-gallon glass carboy or two (or three or...that's
where the problem starts:-)
If you're making it commercially, you get SS tanks according to the scale
of your production; you can get variable-capacity tanks to bridge a fair
range of quantities. But those start rather large; also you need a way
to rack the cider.
"For example"...we probably need about 100 gallons a year of cider for our
home and party use. There's only one cycle per year, so that means 100
gallons of capacity (plus temporary variables!). I don't want to string
out carboys from here to the state line, and besides, every additional
container and batch is a bunch of extra work plus additional opportunities
for contamination.
The puzzle I'm posing is how to step up in capacity. (I have some peculiar
solutions of my own, but they're awkward. I'm seeking something more
generally useful, as I expect other folks may have hit the same puzzle.)
Larger home-scale equipment is available, but expensive. Consider: A
5-gallon carboy is around $20, or $4/gallon of capacity,US. A 27-gallon
SS "Fermenator" is about $750, or $28/gallon. (I'm not knocking the
Fermenators!! They're clever and well-designed; they've got many
characteristics you want. They're just expensive.)
Barrels are an alternative, but can you get the barrels you want? Not
easy, I've found. You can get new barrels for a king's ransom, -and- then
you have to condition them to tone down the oak so that your cider doesn't
taste like a piece of furniture. You can get used wine barrels, but you're
at the mercy of how the barrel was used. You can get whiskey barrels, but
then you've got to spend effort to be sure your cider doesn't end up like
low-proof whiskey (although you can make a pleasant variation that way!).
Back to the topic: How do you make (say) a hundred gallons of cider per
year? How do you step up from 10-20 gallons or so, and actually scale up
rather than just replicating?
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Kazak Apples
From: "Margevicius, Joe" <jmargevicius@walbridge.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:24:58 -0400
I have heard that several varieties of apples native to Kazakhstan may
be good candidates for cider making. I am interesting in experimenting
with several Kazak varieties see what comes of them. Is anyone familiar
with any specific varieties and how they fare in cider? Or even perhaps
how specific varieties might be classified for cider potential (ie,
sharp, bittersharps, S.G, p.H., etc). so that at least I have some place
to start.
Thanks alot.
Joe
Joseph R. Margevicius, P.E.
Vice President and General Manager, Belding Walbridge
Detroit Office: (313) 442-1245
Aurora Office: (630) 906-6860
Cell: (630) 417-7530
------------------------------
Subject: Press racks availability.
From: "Mark Johnson" <friendlypool@astound.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 09:46:05 -0700
Hi,
I have access to parts for trash compactors, pumps, hydraulic cylinders,
power supplies, etc.. Is there someplace where we can buy standard
components for the grids, racks, and cheeses?
If so, I would like the information so we can design a platen for the ram on
the cylinder to fit the surface area of the grids and racks.
We need to build a press that we can squeeze enough ground apple or pear to
get about 5 to 6 gallons per pressing.
We are in northern California. I am in Walnut Creek, but I am considering
traveling around with the grinding and pressing equipment wherever it might
be needed. Oregon and Washington as well.
Mark (Ciderman) Johnson
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1409
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