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Cider Digest #1404
Subject: Cider Digest #1404, 21 August 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1404 21 August 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Dick Dunn's letter to the editor of Food & Wine magazine ("Jay Hersh aka D...)
RE: Cider Marketing and economics ("McGonegal, Charles P")
Perry pears and wet summers ("McGonegal, Charles P")
Re: Cider Digest #1403, 20 August 2007 (Bill Rhyne)
perry regionalism? :-( (Dick Dunn)
Re: Cider Digest #1403, 20 August 2007 (Tom Oliver)
Re:Draft Cider (shawn@blossomwoodcidery.com)
Re: Defining Cider (shawn@blossomwoodcidery.com)
Re: Perry (poire) (shawn@blossomwoodcidery.com)
Re: Perry (poire) (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Dick Dunn's letter to the editor of Food & Wine magazine
From: "Jay Hersh aka Dr. Beer(R)" <jsh@doctorbeer.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 07:51:58 -0400
Kudos to Dick and Stephen Beaumont for their letters to the editors of Food
& Wine. The magazine recently did a piece on Beer. Dick pointed out that
they have neglected cider as a beverage worthy of consideration. I wrote a
letter to them too regarding this and got a polite reply, though mine
didn't get published. Let's hope they'll seriously consider looking into
the growing cider scene and devote some space to letting others know about it.
Jay Hersh
Lincoln, MA
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Marketing and economics
From: "McGonegal, Charles P" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 09:20:48 -0500
I'm going to wrap up a few replies into one post, since there's overlap
in a couple of places.
Bill Rhyne (Hi Bill) notes that : To make a long story short, "chicks
dig cider".
I had to laugh. When prepping for the Great taste of the Midwest a week
or so ago, I was printing a list of local shops that carry my wares. I
loaded the back side of the list with propaganda - get out and talk to
your legistlator stuff for 2 WI issues I'm working (self distribution
and micro-distilling). I also put out a plea for beer geeks to rate my
ciders on a couple of the prominent websites dedicated to that (I'm
slightly irked by the 'it doesn't taste juicy enough' comments. It's
_cider_, not juice!). I ran it past a beer geek here at my day job. His
response; ' Just write "Chicks Dig Cider" '.
And my show experience is similar to Bill's : beer geeks accept cider
way more than wine snobs. When I go to the Great Taste, I lug 4 cases
of champagne and dessert 'cider'. I don't bring them back. Further, I
go through 30 gallons of draft cider. In 5 hours.
I'm glad Richard spoke up, for my experience matches his points in a lot
of ways - especially starting the business with a 'build it and they
will come' attitude. I think his comments reinforce the idea that there
are (at least) two distinct markets that cidermakers can (maybe must)
play in. Wholesale is very different from on-farm tasting room retail.
Fewer products at bigger scale with tight focus is very important - 4
ciders is a big portfolio. Selling from a tasting room, there's a huge
pressure not to let anyone get away empty-handed - a dozen products may
not be enough to cover the range of taste buds that come through the
door. I'm trying to cut the size of my tasting list down from nearly
twenty. Easier said than done.
Shawn has some good questions, I think. Am I putting draft cider
against a microbrew price point? Yep. My (admittedly limited)
experience is that in this setting, the venue sets the expected price.
Taverns are willing to juggle a bit - using a smaller glass, for
instance - but when you add a tapped product to a line of taps - you've
got to be priced like the rest. I was vague last time, I'll be
specific. I sell a half-barrel for $185 - well under the $15/gallon
that Mr. Mansfield recommended. For comparison, that's more than local
lagers, less than imported lambics. That price works out okay for me.
A regional distributor told me they could sell as much as I could make
for $100/half-bbl (to them). That price doesn't work for me. (And works
out to $155 as the tavern's price, by the way.) The bigger hurdle for
me is getting a tavern owner to 'give' me a tap that was originally set
up by a distributor. In my area, wholesale alcohol sales is an inside
job.
I also like Shawn's remark about location (Location, location, location!
- - applies to cider, too) since it highlights two aspects of geography at
once. 1) Not everyone may think they can draw enough traffic at their
lcaotion. Possibly true, but under explored as an option, I believe.
2) Shawn elsewhere states 7-9% ABV as the natural range for cider. Wow
- - what a climate :-) To tie in another issue Shawn brings up (Do you
thin out/dumb down cider for the draft market in order to make it
cheaper?) I _won't_ thin out my draft cider in order to make it cheaper.
Using common apples is as far as I will go. But on the other hand,
common apples in my neck of the woods range about 4.5-5.5% ABV. The
uncommon apples will get up to 7.5% ABV, and I've got a crabapple or two
that would do 10% if I didn't use them for blending. My answer to 'Do I
bottle the draft?' so far is 'Yes, but only sell it through the tasting
room.'
In discussing the mixed blessing of riding the coat tails of mass-market
cider marketing in the setting of my tasting room that Shawn asks for
clarification on:
Why do people come in? Mostly signs and advertising. We get a lot of
people who are 1) driving about and stumble across us, and 2)
vacationing in the area and looking for things to do. We do get a few
people who seek us out because of our specialty. Getting people through
the door is really not that hard. But the answer to the next question
visitors ask 'What do you mean, you've got nothing made from grapes' is
trickier. Most people have at least heard of cider, from the mass
marketing. Countless wives turn to their husbands and say 'You like
cider - come on and try this.' Even when people say they don't like
cider because it's too sticky sweet, I've got the answer - better cider!
It's a place to start the education, and there's a lot of education to
be done. Contrast perry - no mass market campaign, no clue that such a
product exists. Our visitors at least know of cider - though most
haven't experience the range of mineral/woody/spicy/grassy/nutty - and I
even give them a fruity one - that I can pull out of uncommon cultivars.
Nearly all are surprised by the very notion of perry. Surprised and
intrigued. And that's a key difference between selling cider and perry.
Apples are mundane, it seems. I do find it easier to point someone
who's heard of cider in the direction of better cider, than to educate a
wine snob who's stuck on Vitis vinifera. Pears seem to have the mystery
and romance of grapes - maybe more. Perry draws the curious in a way
that cider doesn't. That probably doesn't quite answer Shawn's question
about my twisted logic - but it may partly boil down to the quirks of
local audiences that a cidery draws.
To my "In my case, trying to learn from other businesses leads me away
from the apples (full stop) cider that my orchard happens to produce,
and towards things with wider consumer appeal." Shawn asks " Maybe you
are looking at the wrong cider businesses as examples?"
When I do a cranberry flavored cider as an experiment for a
toll-manufacturing request, and find that it outsells the straight apple
version about 4:1, I think I've got to consider that empirical data.
I've been sent to way too many corporate 'Quality' training programs to
ignore the feedback from the customer. I buck that advice for about 80%
of the line items my porfolio. The majority of the gallonage goes to
the 20% of the list where I've got proven demand. In any case, whether
aiming for maximum authenticity, or yielding to consumer preferences, I
do it my way. I may say 'Self, a flavored cider will sell tons', and
Self answers 'Okay, but you've got to drink it too'. So it's not as
sweet, nor intensely flavored as many people expect (mostly having
visited midwest fruit wineries that tend to aim for big juicy flavors)
and I get a lot of thanks for not going all the way to 'ocean spray with
vodka.'
Shawn also writes "I don't think anyone ever questioned your quality,
but in general quality of a cider and a cider really NOT having anything
special about it are two different things."
I agree with the last bit. I think it does into quality and identity
being separate. And it also plays into one of my goals in influencing
cider judging and and judge training. Knowing how to identify faults is
good. Knowing how to describe what's _good_ about a cider would be even
better - and I think it's a hole in BJCP related efforts.
As for people questioning the quality of my ciders; I've mixed feelings.
I've made some nice ciders (and perry) and had a couple of shelf
stability issues in early products. I don't claim to make the 'best
cider' - just better cider.
But it's not about the technical sensory quality - it's the question
raised about 'what is cider'. Even my 'dumbed down' draft line is
undiluted, apples grown on property and juice/concentrates - no
essences, no carbonated water. When I chaptalize in order to deliver a
semi-sweet still product, I call it a fruit wine, and I don't pretend
that it's as authentic as the rest. (It still sells better, though.)
But above all, I'm not an absolutist. When people say 'apples, period'
- - I _have_ to start asking 'but what about...?' But what about
cellaring materials? But what about shelf stability technologies -
chemical or thermal? But what about cooperage - steel/glass/oak/oak used
for spirits? Once you get away from 'period', where's the line? Even
my strawberry-flavored cider is over 95% apples by volume. I don't
believe in 100% anything. So no, no one has questioned my products
directly. But I do make products that are similar in several ways to
ones being disparaged. If nothing else, I have to play the devil's
advocate.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Perry pears and wet summers
From: "McGonegal, Charles P" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:30:56 -0500
I've got one whole kind of perry pear that split wide open this year.
It's been moderately warm and damp in SE Wisconsin this summer - ripe
for fireblight (luckily the perry trees have dodged it, by and large).
But I was strolling down the rows and noticed that a couple of trees
have severely cracked fruit. The skin is cracked deeply, like it burst
from the inside. The flesh is still hard. I think it might be Barland
- - but I didn't have my key handy at the time.
Have others noticed this kind of behavior? Any particular perry pears
prone to it? (We have a few uncommon apples that do the same thing.)
Charles
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1403, 20 August 2007
From: Bill Rhyne <bill_rhyne@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:25:33 -0700 (PDT)
RE: Marketing, packaging, economics and pricing
There are some other things that I learned in researching a cider business
plan and implementing it. When I analyzed the kegging operations of beer
companies, the wholesale price to the bar, the cost of servicing kegs,
the challenges of getting the one or two cider lines available for kegged
cider, it did not look that attractive.
First, the profitability was small and then I learned that beer companies
use kegging operation as a "loss leader" to get people to try the product
in the restaurant or bar setting. Beer is cheaper to make that cider so
cider in kegs is even more of a loss leader if you try to sell it like beer.
Secondly for us (Rhyne Cyder) coming from the wine background, we were
not keggers so kegging cider would have required different skill sets and
investments, as well as some one to pick up the kegs when they were empty,
clean them, service the lines, etc.
Thirdly, since our interest was to deliver a unique experience with some
amount assurance on our part that the product would perform in front of the
customer as it performed for us when we drank it. The kegging operations did
not appear to offer the same guarantee of consistency as would a beverage
that come right from a bottle and was sealed at the factory. I have had
enough draft beers at pubs that taste like detergent cleaning materials
to know that there can be variability in the presentation of a draft product.
Fourthly, there is the customer's perception of quality. Some of
the perception is determined by the packaging and presentation of the
product. Our goal was to establish a new and higher price point in 1997
($8.99/750ml bottle) so that there was some profitability for us in our
business model to justify the quality of ingredients and labor intensity of
our concept. At that time in our area, the most expensive cider was $4.99
for a 750ml bottle of cider. If the cider was packaged in beer bottles and
sold for $6.99 a six pack, then our task would have been to ratchet down
costs in order to make a profit so efficiency, not quality of experience,
would have been the main operational motivator. We put the product in beer
glass, wine glass, and champagne glass with varying labels asked some
consumers which product would they select. We also asked which package
suggests high quality or makes their mouth water in anticipation. That is
how we selected our glass packaging and our
label art.
Our anticipated broker also advised us as we went along as to our packaging
as we were going to expect him to sell the product and generate orders
for our product. He was very happy with the results and our package design
is what got us into many accounts. Our package design was considered very
attractive. Store buyers know what works in their stores and the brokers
and distributors who call on the stores have this information. The brokers
and distributors also know which stores pay their bill on time. The broker
also advised us on how to create point of purchase information tags that
could have impact on sales.
Once you have your product in a store, you need to make friends with the
store clerks so they understand and like you and your product. They were our
best sales agents as they talked directly with the retail customers. Also,
you need to make sure that your product is not hidden or getting dusty on
the shelf. The large companies have armies of merchandisers who maintain
the appearance of the product on the shelf. Don't expect the store clerks to
do that for you. They might but they are very busy and as a small company,
your company may get lost in the shuffle. Some stores expect the person
who delivers the product to price and put the product on the shelf. It
depends on the store operation.
I hope that what I have offered here rings true with some of the experiences
of others and helpful to those cidermakers who will be exploring distribution
into retail outlets. Good luck!
Bill Rhyne
------------------------------
Subject: perry regionalism? :-(
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 00:16:40 -0600
Ben Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net> wrote in the last digest:
> Charles McGonegal at Aeppel Treow makes a very drinkable pear wine, and
> other small wineries use pears (I assume Bartlett or Comice). And
> Charles's "Poirissimo" aperitif/dessert wine is outstanding -- it's
> what pommeau is for apples. And Mike Beck in Michigan is making perry
> too; it seems like the Great Lakes will be the cradle for perry if it
> gets going -- which is logical, since the climate is good for growing
> them out there.
Ben, this is out of character for you. What's with the regional bias?
Particularly when you've only got two producers as examples, how can this
mythical huge region (the Great Lakes) become "the cradle for perry"?!?
The absolute best US perry I've ever had came from Alan Foster, in Oregon,
and it was on a par with the best UK Three Counties perries I've had. So
why isn't Yamhill County going to be "the cradle for perry"? (etc., etc.)
Seriously now: Is the climate really good for -perry- pears? East Lansing
ain't May Hill, y'know. More to the point, if Michigan and Wisconsin are
good, so is about half the US! We know various areas can produce pears
good enough for an interesting perry, but we don't know where the trees
will do really well and produce their full potential. This is going to be
a LONG experiment! It's NOT just a matter of where the trees flourish;
indeed it may be that the best environment won't make the best perry.
Perry pear trees may need certain stresses, just as grapevines do.
People all over the US have been planting perry pears for some years now.
(I wonder if Jim Cummins could give us any profiles/stats on the sorts of
people getting perry varieties from their nursery?) Promoting the Great
Lakes is a slap in the face to everyone else in the country, and it's way
too soon anyway. What perry in the US needs right now is cooperation and
communication among producers.
None of this is intended to be a swipe at either Charles or Mike, mind you!
(more cheerful notes on Ben's posting to follow later)
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1403, 20 August 2007
From: Tom Oliver <t-oliver@sky.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 07:40:31 +0100
With regard to many of the articles in Cider Digest 1403.
I found it very interesting and pleasing to see so many threads associated
with the making and marketing of craft cider and perry.
I agree that it is probably inadvisable to get into cider and perry making
if you want to "make" money (Shawn Carney).
It is better if you are passionate and want to exploit your passion by
exploring those that share a passion for your products (Dick Dunn).
It is probably the diversity of comments and the essence of hope by so many
producers that I find so gratifying.
Our products uniquely, reflect the raw material and the producers, giving us
a great story which we can share with consumers.
If you make the best products you can, then for those for whom cider and
perry is their "Grateful Dead", long may they live.
Tom Oliver.
------------------------------
Subject: Re:Draft Cider
From: shawn@blossomwoodcidery.com
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 12:44:55 -0400
After thinking about mark Lattanzi post in digest #1402 and his analogy to
Dogfish Head beer I decided to take a look at the product the next time I
was in the store. One thing I noticed different about it, aside from it's
obvious "extreme beer quality" was that it sold for $9.95 a six pack (which
is pretty high in the US). Also most brew pubs I visit offer a seasonal
barley wine which is served at a reduced size compared to the other draft
beers (usually in a brandy snifter) but many times the cost per serving
is the same. Putting the two together I don't see it as 'insurmountable'
to develop a unique size and price for draft cider. However it would be
much easier to go down the road of serving it in pints, cutting it with
water, and when competition gets tough fermenting with glucose. Anyone who
thinks they can resist the temptation of making more money or sacrificing
quality to save their business are fooling themselves. It seems wise to
make decisions from the start that, may not make your job easy but will
make it possible to exist and still turn a profit down the road.
Shawn Carney
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Defining Cider
From: shawn@blossomwoodcidery.com
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:01:33 -0400
In Digest #1403 Nicholas writes
"The problem I feel is that some are
a blend with Perry and others are a high alcohol cider which maybe best
described as cider wine?"
What is high alcohol there? It IS normal to get 7-9% ABV with pure
fermented juice here in the US, and that is of course higher than Strongbow.
Also, do they list the ingredients on the bottle? Pear cider in my opinion
is a truly hideous 'bastard product' and many times does not event contain
pear juice, but pear essence instead. However in my mind even fermented
pear juice doped up with pear essence is a cop-out and a poor substitute
for perry.
Shawn Carney
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Perry (poire)
From: shawn@blossomwoodcidery.com
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:23:33 -0400
In digest #1403 Ben writes:
"English perries (Gwatkin, Kevin Minchew's,
etc.) might not do as well here."
I think their Gin perry would do well here. People seem to enjoy perry made
from the Gin perry pear for some reason. I like all the English perries,
the first 'real' ciders I drank had to grow on me a bit but not the perry.
But it isn't the first time I have herd people say they don't think it
would do well, and I am not sure why?
"Plant pears for your heirs"
Except in climates where the quince rootstock doesn't freeze to death,
like in the western states. But of course I don't believe in trying to
foresee the future like an old gipsy woman.
Shawn Carney
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Perry (poire)
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 18:18:11 -0600
Ben Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net> wrote about the nascent state of perry
(both making and appreciating) in the US. Actually, Ben, although you're
right in the main, there's more going on than you mentioned.
rearranging your comments a bit...
>...And perry is pretty close to nowhere on the US drink radar screen.
Perry just showed up on the radar when NPR did a piece on it on 26 July,
entitled "Out of the Pear Orchard and Into the Glass". It featured a
short interview with English master perry-maker Tom Oliver and an on-air
tasting with the interviewers making comments.
So all of a sudden there were a few million people wondering, "So what is
this perry stuff -really- like, and where the heck can I get some?!?"
That is definitely "ON the radar".
> ...English perries (Gwatkin, Kevin Minchew's,
> etc.) might not do as well here.
As it happens, Tom Oliver had managed to work out to import some of his
cider and perry to the US; it came available right around when the NPR
piece aired. Unfortunately, the NPR piece was just -ahead- of the perry
actually getting to shops, and there were only a couple hundred cases for
the country, so it was all snapped up in a huge hurry and lots of folks
who know about perry missed out. But now there's a pent-up demand -and-
a slight mystique about it! I think this could get interesting in a
hurry.
Gwatkin and Minchew are fine, but it seems a lot has happened in the past
ten years or so in English perry. Look to Oliver, James Marsden (Gregg's
Pit), Mike Johnson (formerly Broome Farm, now Ross-on-Wye)...
Also, Ben, as a Slow Food dude, I'm surprised you didn't bring up the
Presidium and Ark status for Three Counties Perry. I hope you'll take
this rather broad hint! Maybe explain, in the context of that perry
tradition, what the Presidium and Ark terms mean.
(Before this gets too obscure for the uninitiated reader: "Three Counties"
means Worcestershire, Gloucestershire, and Herefordshire--the three
counties in western England where most of England's perry is made.)
> However, there are a number of farm wineries experimenting with pears
> and perry-making, and hopefully we'll all be able to have US perry in
> future years. The fact that pear trees come into bearing pretty
> slowly (hence the saying, "Plant pears for your heirs") and the lack
> of a perry culture in the US (even historically, to the best of my
> knowledge) means that marketing the stuff could be a long uphill slog.
I think the market will be there before we're able to supply it. BUT the
potential problem I see is an attempt to fill the demand with "junk"
perries, like the pear/cider blends or cider with pear flavor/essence
added. That could really cripple the market for high-end perry.
I'd also worry whether wineries with little cider experience/background
might not head off in the direction of "country wine" style pear wines,
which also aren't likely to help the cause.
(Or, succinctly, "We got a golden opportunity here. Don't blow it!")
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1404
*************************
