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Cider Digest #1387
Subject: Cider Digest #1387, 2 June 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1387 2 June 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
What?s this? Can?t you get apostrophes right? (Cider Digest)
Re: Cider Digest #1386, 28 May 2007 (Bill Rhyne)
Re: Origin of Cultivars (Claude Jolicoeur)
Re: Crab Apple Experiment (Claude Jolicoeur)
RE: Origin of Cultivars ("McGonegal, Charles P")
Origin of Cultivars and Cider School ("Drew Zimmerman")
Aroma description question: apple-drops, pear-drops ("McGonegal, Charles P")
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Subject: What?s this? Can?t you get apostrophes right?
From: cider-request@talisman.com (Cider Digest)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 22:07:52 -0600 (MDT)
Folks, you may have noticed an annoying tendency for some postings to the
digest to show up with all the apostrophes replaced by "?".
The source of this is mail programs and editors, used by the folks posting
to the digest, which give wrong information about character set in the mail
headers[*]. I can't fix that, nor can the folks using this software since
it's ubiquitous...and neither you nor I can influence the software makers
since they're big and not very bright. (They're probably not as stupid as
they are big, but that's damning by faint praise and anyway I digress.)
What I -can- do is hand-edit the broken postings, and I'll try to do that
starting with this digest, to get rid of at least the apostrophe botch.
You are still likely to see some extraneous "?"s for other special
characters mis-placed by your mailer...such as directed double-quotes,
em-dashes, etc.
If you want to know what you might do (or might try): Set your character
set for email to strict ISO-8859-1 and see if that helps. I don't know
if it will.
[*]Nerdly explanation: The problem is mailers which claim to be sending
text in ISO-8859-1, but then put graphic characters in the range 0x80-0x9f.
This range is defined to be control characters, which are replaced here by
"?" to prevent unintended effects on your display. What the mailers
usually intend is really the Windows 1252 charset (which gives you a fair
idea of where the botch originates!).
- --da janitor
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1386, 28 May 2007
From: Bill Rhyne <bill_rhyne@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 17:27:43 -0700 (PDT)
RE: Charles M.'s idea of tracking apples and cider to build a database
I have a little time on my computer this morning so I hope that you
don't mind if I weigh in on the apple database idea.
In talking to apple farmers about their apples, their soil, and the climate
characteristics when I was researching apples for Rhyne Cyder, I learned
that not only the apple cultivar but the soil, microclimate characteristics,
and the farming practices can alter the outcome for the apple that is used
to make juice and cider. This is similar to the wine grape story so it
made sense. so, while the Great Lakes may be a great region for apples,
the farmer's practices and his soil will make a difference also so that
data may want to be collected.
We (Rhyne Cyder) looked at the historical profiles of cider apples from
the books mentioned in this cider digest (Warcollier, Southern Apple Book,
Principles of Cidermaking, others, and from Andrew' Lea's work). California
apple history was missing from the story so we set out to evaluate the
California apples on our own (TA, pH, Brix, color, aroma, taste, etc.) and
to choose the ones that we could source somewhat regularly. This is probably
what most cidermakers are doing on their own, I would guess, if they are
systematic in their approach to life. The urgency that we felt was that a
lot of apple trees in West County of Sonoma that were historically grown for
flavor, not size or appearance for the Safeway market, were being pulled
to plant grapes. One of our goals was to demonstrate that high quality
cider could be made using the existing cultivars in a high quality process
using our tastebuds, noses, and my sister-in-law, Benedicte's knowledge
and experience in winemaking to guide us. We thought that we could encourage
others to make cider from these apples to keep the trees in the ground
and create a new market for the farmers. We fermented about 16 varieties
throught the years so we were not exhaustive by any means as there are
about 60 varieties or more grown in California. Time and energy limited
our work. But I think that Charles' idea is a good idea in the spirit of
cooperation or collaboration to build a knowledge base about apples, juice,
cider, and processes that affect the quality of each. This has been done
by others in the past but perhaps it could be updated to reflect the new
realities of the apple industry in the USA or the world.
(Digression>)
I am China right now as I write this and they are doing this kind of
research in Hebei Province. I talked to one professor several years ago and
his university has an orchard with 600 varieties (if I remember correctly)
and that there are about 60-70 varieties being grown commercially. I was
told back in 2000 that Shaanxi province grew almost half of the apples
in China, which grows around 1/3 of the apples in the world. So, China is
into apples and juice, I am trying to get them into cider. They have a few
cider makers so far of various quality and price points. The country does
not have much of a history for drinking cider but the consumers here are
trying all kinds of new things.
(Back to point)
Anyway, what I am suggesting is that while a cidermaker is collecting
data on his specific apples, he may also want to record, the location of
the orchard, the soil type, the micro climate characteristics, and the
farming practices (dry farm or irrigate, tilled orchard bed or mowed grass,
fertilizers, chemical, etc.)
This is all easy for me to say but it is hard to do so I wish you all
the best to uncover the mysteries of tasty cider.
Bill Rhyne
Xaimen, China
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Origin of Cultivars
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 23:55:26 -0400
Well, friends, I guess I will have to say my word in this discussion after
reading the nice things Dick said about my Cortland cider...
>In fact we've even seen a discussion of this in the past. Claude Jolicoeur
>has talked about his Cortland varietal cider--and it really is both good
>and distinctive; I've been privileged to taste it. But other folks trying
>Cortland for cider have reported mixed results at best for cider even
>though it is a "Great Lakes" cultivar.
Thanks, Dick.
That said, let's look at the region where I live and grow apples, around
Quebec City and going North-East. The main apple production is at Ile
d'Orleans, near Quebec. There are also orchards along the North coast of
the St-Lawrence River. If we looked at the traditional varieties that were
grown some 50 years ago, we would find:
>From Russia, Alexander, Duchesse, Yellow Transparent.
>From USA, Wealthy, Cortland, Golden Russet
>From Ontario, McIntosh, Lobo, Melba
and from Quebec, Fameuse, which seems to be the only variety that I can
think of that originated in the province and was grown to a noticeable scale.
In my opinion, what is important is that all those varieties had in common
the fact that they were perfectly adapted to the climate and soil of the
region and gave first quality production. Their origin place is rather
irrelevant. All this to say that the origin doesn't need to be local for
the apple to be considered a traditionnal variety for a region...
At the same time, what Charles is trying to do makes sense. If we look at
wine, if I buy a Bordeaux red wine, I am pretty sure it will be made from
Cabernet Sauvignon, Merlot and Cabernet franc, if I buy an Hermitage from
the Rhone valley, it would be made with Syrah (Shiraz) and if I buy a
Beaujolais, it will be made from Gamay. These rules insure that all
produces sharing an "Appellation" also have some commonality in their
nature. And all these grapes are traditionnal grape varieties for their
region. But all these great grapes are also now grown in newer regions
with, sometimes great success - I am becoming a fan of California Cabernet
Sauvignon - when well made, it has nothing to envy to it's Bordeaux
counterpart. Can we, or should we, or will we consider Cabernet Sauvignon
as a traditionnal California grape???? If a "California Wine" appellation
required an old traditionnal grape variety, possibly all California wines
would have to be made with Zinfandel as it is one of the oldest wine grape
varieties grown in that state. But Zinfandel's origin appears to be
Croatia....
To conclude, I guess I would have to say there is no easy answer.
Claude Jolicoeur
Quebec
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Crab Apple Experiment
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 00:36:22 -0400
In Cider Digest #1386, 28 May 2007
>Subject: Crab Apple Experiment
>From: Donald Davenport <djdavenport@earthlink.net>
>But if Denis can get 1118 to fire up after 2 years, it kind of blows
>that theory. I'm wondering now if it might then have to do with
>nitrogen levels.
Donald, I would also look in that direction (i.e. nitrogen level). You
mention that your friend's orchard is much older than yours - this could be
the key. But before being able to say for sure, you need more data. Just
one experiment like this is insufficient to draw conclusion. So many
factors may have some influence. It would also be useful to plot the
complete fermentation curve to see if there is difference in fermentation
speed. Normally, a cider that starves on nitrogen would take more time to
ferment.
The other question is how long ago did you bottle? Maybe your friend's
cider just had less time for bottle fermentation...
Claude, in Quebec.
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Origin of Cultivars
From: "McGonegal, Charles P" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Tue, 29 May 2007 09:06:46 -0500
The merit of AOCs came up a lot at the Slow Foods Terra Madre conference
in 2004. I assume it did again in 2006. It seems like Europeans are
quite taken with the idea. In reality, I don't know how well they are
working even over there - and I really doubt that North Americans will
take up such a system. As noted, we move ideas and things around too
far, and too fast to build up (or tolerate) strict regionality.
Our tendancy to move good ideas around certainly complicates this
discussion - possibly beyond the point of usefulness. And yet, we
Americans like to put geographic names on products that are somewhat
similar. And not just cider. I live in Wisconsin. I believe that
Colby and Brick are genuine, locally originated cheese styles. But are
they as highly regarded as the Bries, Montechevres, etc? Think of how
long it's taken the EC to wrestle back control of terms like 'Burgundy'
and 'Champagne' that the BATF/TTB had declared generic.
Use of tools like AVAs (American Viticultural Areas) has benefits and
problems. But still, they exist - and are proliferating. If some
cidermakers would like to try to develop notional 'ACA's, a resource of
historical data would be helpful. Even so, the AVAs don't delve into
cultivar like the AOCs do.
I've occassionally used points like these to argue that there will never
be distinct regional North American (US, at least) ciders. That the
movement of cultivars and practices, and producer individuality will
bury regional differences 'in the noise'. And _that_ is what will
characterize American ciders.
By the same token, I've occassionally argued that competition categories
should be based on the basic sensory variables (like sweetness, acidity
and tannin) rather than geographic names - which are supposed to imply
certain suites of characters, but don't do so explicitly or in a tidy
fashion.
Note to self: Stop using 'Great Lakes' - you're showing your Michigan
roots - and the tendancy to slap Great Lakes on everything
indiscriminately.
The largest AVA (American Viticultural Area) is the Ohio Valley - which
touches something like 4 states. That's huge, and is still much smaller
than the Great Lakes watershed. Some AVAs are tiny - just a couple of
farms. Is there a size that would make sense for notional ACAs? What
other AVA pitfalls can we avoid?
Re: Dick D.
It's not so much that I think that current cultivar(X)/region(R ) styles
exist now - but I wonder if there were historic ones. And I see I'm
crossing the notion of 'cider-cultural' area with cultivar ensemble. I
_think_ they were related at some point, but it probably wasn't a tight
relation. =20
Tom Burford maintains that the national catalog nurseries smashed the
old patchwork of locally selected cultivars by pushing varieties for
reasons other than how well they performed in region 'R'. Quite the
opposite - he points out the economic forces that work against locality.
I don't think the current distribution of cultivars can be trusted as
being anything more than 'American'. (No disparagement of the fruit
[except Red Delicious], or country implied!!!)
[It is safe to disparage Red Del. with this group, isn't it?]
As a research project, I think a compilation of North American cultivar
origin data would be intruiging. Can we find regional preferences for
certain cultivars? What were the cultivars, and what were the regions?
This is a relatively young nation. Maybe the 18th and 19th centuries
simply weren't long enough for much to develop - compared to what, at
_least_ 700 years of french and english cider? Maybe we'll find that
there were common ensembles of apples for cider - but not tied to
geography. And even that much information, collected in one public
resource, would be valuable to inspire new cidermakers and cidergrowers
to try ciders that are not market fruit and not european bitters.
And perhaps that's what I'm trying most to get after - in my typical
round-about fashion. Encouraging experimentation with cider apples of
North American origin. They may not have ever been single purpose
apples. (I doubt they were in the US) They may have been so jumbled up
geographically that regional attributions are unsatisfying. (But I bet
there of hints of regionality). The experimenters, commercial and non-,
may be scattered across the whole continent, so we have to tell
customers things like 'this is the cider that I grew and made here from
a blend of apples favored in 18th Cent. New Jersey.' (where 'here' is
anywhere.)
But I'm dying to see what my Harrison/Graniwinkle/Hewes/Newtown blend
comes out like - and how it's different from Foggy Mountain's. And how
it's different from my Domaine/Michelin/Frequin Tardiff ensemble.
Charles McGonegal
Aeppeltreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Origin of Cultivars and Cider School
From: "Drew Zimmerman" <drewzimmer@comcast.net>
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 21:49:19 -0700
A lot said about regions and cultivars. Here are my thoughts. From the
varietal work that is still ongoing in Northern Puget Sound at WSU, Mt.
Vernon, we're finding that some noted American cider varieties just don't do
very well at all in our climate. The Harrison doesn't seem to want to
fruit, and the Taliaferro (Colaw) is the same. The Campfield succumbed to
fungus and Granniwinkle ripens awful dang early. I don't know if the famous
mid Atlantic cider apples are going to wind up as part of the Puget Sound
region. The English and French cider apples do very well here, some better
than others, but that's to be expected, our climates are almost identical.
Some experiments in Eastern Washington (not so high desert) have shown that
late blooming varieties are susceptible to fireblight. If you have
fireblight in your area, don't expect much luck with the likes of Dabinett,
Brown Snout, Vilebery, Medaille d' Or and other May bloomers.
The point here is that each climatic region is going to have to discover
which apple varieties are going to thrive in that particular area. I don't
think you can just go by USDA climate zones either, but perhaps that's a
start. The Cortland is an important example; it makes great cider in one
local, but not so great in others. The traditional apples of a region are a
good place to start, but most apples grown are for eating, not cider. True,
some work well for both, but have you ever eaten a Dabinett' It's a gosh
awful spitter, yet it's the number one cider apple in the UK. I think
there's a fair bit of work to do in these potential cider regions. One can
start by making varietal ciders from existing varieties and evaluate them
for flavor characteristics as well as sugar, acid and tannin. The next step
would be to plant and trial other varieties from similar climates that can
enhance the cider from promising local varieties. If we start now, maybe
our kids or grandkids will be making outstanding cider.
Drew Zimmerman
Red Barn Cider
Oh yeah, part two: There is still some room in the Principles and Practice
cider making course the last week of June in Mt. Vernon, WA. This class
includes a day long trip through the San Juan Islands to the Merridale
Cidery on Vancouver Island, B. C. Lots of hands on cider making and lab
work, also a good section on orcharding. HYPERLINK
http://learningcenters.wsu.edu/skagit/cider.html
------------------------------
Subject: Aroma description question: apple-drops, pear-drops
From: "McGonegal, Charles P" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 09:07:11 -0500
I see these terms in resources ranging from Morgan & Richards (Book of
Apples) to J. Rutter's system on Andrew Lea's website.
In that system, they are under fragrant/estery.
But just what the heck are they? My impression is that the words refer
to the hard, sour candies - although I've never encountered a pear
version. Do they refer to the intense, one-dimensional flavors in those
candies? And for the apple version, is that the ethyl methyl dioxolane
acetate (aka applinal) character that Andrew has written of a few times?
And if so - what's the pear compound?
Charles McGonegal
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1387
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