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Cider Digest #1403
Subject: Cider Digest #1403, 20 August 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1403 20 August 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Defining Cider ("Nicholas Law")
Re: Perry (poire) (Benjamin Watson)
Bulmers Norman early drop ("JAMES LUEDTKE")
Re: Cider Marketing (Bill Rhyne)
RE: Marketing Craft Cider ("Richard Anderson")
Draft Cider (shawn@blossomwoodcidery.com)
RE: cider economics (shawn@blossomwoodcidery.com)
RE: understanding your business (shawn@blossomwoodcidery.com)
Lattanzi, cider, licorice, and the Grateful Dead (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Re: Defining Cider
From: "Nicholas Law" <nl@elr.net.au>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 20:22:18 +1000
Currently in the emerging Australian cider market a number of producers
are appearing providing product that is far more interesting than the
taste neutral Strongbow and Mercury. The problem I feel is that some are
a blend with Perry and others are a high alcohol cider which maybe best
described as cider wine?? Is there any standards either domestically in
Australia or internationally that could be applied in our infant market
or, am I just being a little puritanical?
Nick Law
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Perry (poire)
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 07:34:38 -0400
Robert Lewis talked about his experience with trying Eric Bordelet's
"Granit" poire, which I've enjoyed for several years, whenever I could
snag a bottle or two. I think we get it up in New England because it's
imported by Ideal Wine and Spirits of Medford, Mass.
I have a bottle of Bordelet's Poire Authentique on hand, which is
sparkling and 4% abv. (a bit higher alcohol than the Granit, if I'm
remembering it correctly). And last time I bought it, it was going for
$11.99 a bottle.
There is something to Robert's comment about people (especially New
Yorkers) liking the stuff because it's from France and is nicely
packaged and presented. English perries (Gwatkin, Kevin Minchew's,
etc.) might not do as well here. And perry is pretty close to nowhere
on the US drink radar screen.
However, there are a number of farm wineries experimenting with pears
and perry-making, and hopefully we'll all be able to have US perry in
future years. The fact that pear trees come into bearing pretty
slowly (hence the saying, "Plant pears for your heirs") and the lack
of a perry culture in the US (even historically, to the best of my
knowledge) means that marketing the stuff could be a long uphill slog.
But with all the interest in European cider apples, there are
parallels for the growing of "real" perry pears, which have those
wonderful Anglo-Saxon West Country names, like Gin, Butt, Bloody
Butcher, and (my favorite) Dead Boy.
Charles McGonegal at Aeppel Treow makes a very drinkable pear wine, and
other small wineries use pears (I assume Bartlett or Comice). And
Charles's "Poirissimo" aperitif/dessert wine is outstanding -- it's
what pommeau is for apples. And Mike Beck in Michigan is making perry
too; it seems like the Great Lakes will be the cradle for perry if it
gets going -- which is logical, since the climate is good for growing
them out there.
As I get back into revising my cider book, I've already decided to
expand my discussion of perry and make it a full chapter in the new
edition. Perry rocks, and in this case I think that noncommercial
(home) fermenters can do much to increase the acceptance of good perry
in this country.
Mike Beck says he is planning to attend Cider Day in person this
November, so anyone who comes there might get a taste of the future for
US perry.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Bulmers Norman early drop
From: "JAMES LUEDTKE" <jwdluedtke@msn.com>
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2007 12:29:52 -0500
I have two Bulmers Norman trees that have been bearing for several years (1
for 6 years, 1 for 2 years). Every year, the fruit begins falling 2 to 3
weeks before fully mature. It doesn't seem to matter whether the fruit is
blemish-free, nor whether during a productive or 'off' year (bennialism).
A very small percentage of apples are left hanging by the time the fruit is
mature (based on taste, seed development and skin color).
This is in Minnesota, in heavy clay loam soil with adequate moisture.
Has anyone else had this experience or suggestions? I do store and
eventually process the fruit that seems to be close to maturity, but I'd
rather they remain on the tree until ripe, hang it!
Jim Luedtke
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Marketing
From: Bill Rhyne <bill_rhyne@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 18:46:38 -0700 (PDT)
Re: Finding your market
I agree with Mark Lattanzi's comment that "beer geeks" are open to
cider. Beer festivals are a good place to introduce your cider product.
When we were researching our cider concept, we hung out at the Triple Rock
and Bison Brewing in Berkeley and talked to the staff and observed who
bought what. The staff generally said that the cider was ordered by the
girlfriends or wives of the beer geek who was ordering the heavy beers. When
we participated in the San Diego Beer Festival several years ago, they told
us that local regulations stated that we could not pour our own product at
the event so they would arrange volunteers to pour our product and then
we could talk about it with the attendees. They told us that there would
be no problem finding male volunteers to pour our cider as the women down
there loved cider more than beer. We poured 4 cases of 2 ounce pours in
about 2 hours and they were correct, women were all over the cider.
One woman told me she liked our cider because she could cook with it and
drink it, too, without getting drunk as she would have with wine, due to
the lower alcohol level of cider. Hence, cider is also for those people
who like wine but cannot tolerate the higher alcohol levels of wine, or
their work schedule does not allow drinking wine during the week. Cider
is more moderate in this feature.
To make a long story short, "chicks dig cider".
IMHO,
Bill Rhyne
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Marketing Craft Cider
From: "Richard Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 21:30:43 -0700
I will put my two cents in on this one. When I conceived the idea to produce
and market a craft cider, my thought was "if you build it they will come"
and that consumers would clear the shelf for a different, "new" product.
Maybe I watched "Field of Dreams" to many times. The market is as Mark wrote
too "broad and soft".
Conventional wisdom when I researched, was cider is a blender's art and I
establish production accordingly, big tanks, few products. Getting cider to
retail was challenge in terms of making regular sales and distribution. We
did slowly build a core, working with the retailers and getting some print.
The problem with this model is that as a wholesaler you end up with $.40 on
the retail dollar, the balance going to the distributor and retailer. The
upside is that production is straightforward, big batch production, uniform
packaging and this is appealing when you consider that typical crush to
market cycle for a new cider is about 12 months taking production, packaging
and distribution in to consideration.
So what should the small craft cider maker do? In retrospect, the wholesale
model does not work well unless you can produce and sell tens of thousands
of gallon of cider each year or command a premium price at retail. The farm
gate model will work if you can get people to visit and have a variety of
ciders to sell. Think diversity, small lots and I hate to say it, but "Agra
tourism". But for gods sake do not make junk products, there are so many
good, single variety ciders that can be made. There are some good models out
there and maybe some others on the digest will write about them.
------------------------------
Subject: Draft Cider
From: shawn@blossomwoodcidery.com
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 15:43:49 -0400
In digest #1399 Charles touched on his experience selling draft cider.
One part I have questions about is where he writes:
"I can't compete in the wholesale market for tap lines in bars. That low
pricepoint crowds me out. If I sell Direct-to-Trade, I can _just_ make
needed margin AND expected pricepoint on kegs (but not bottles)."
I am guessing the price point Charles is referring to is the draft microbrew
price point? Since I don't think a draft cider price point exists yet.
It seems like you have two choices with draft cider:
#1) water it down to 5% ABV (the minimum ABV most people are going to
except and pay microbrew price point) and compete against draft beer and
stuff like woodchuck.
#2) come up with a unique serving size, keep the natural alcohol content
7-9% and choose a price between draft beer and wine by the glass to be the
"best guess" price point, I don't see anything wrong with telling consumers
your product is worth 7-8 dollars per serving (or what ever number you
come up with), after all people pay that or more for a 6 OZ pour of wine
(which many times is of lower quality).
Also, should your draft cider be the same cider you sell in bottles? Is
there anything wrong with stretching out your cider fruit with lower cost
processing apples in a draft product? Would it be damaging to cider if
"draft" was viewed as a somewhat lower quality product than bottled?
With beer, people expect the product that comes from the tap to be the
same thing as what's in the bottle. With wine it seems like only the
cheap stuff gets put in kegs, weather that makes sense or not. My guess
is that you would want your draft product to be the same as your bottled,
but it could probably be argued either way.
Shawn Carney
"Not all six pack ciders are crap, the rest are guilty by association." - Me
------------------------------
Subject: RE: cider economics
From: shawn@blossomwoodcidery.com
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 16:34:49 -0400
In digest #1399 Charles writes about the benefit of glucose-wine six-pack
ciders : "--At least with regards to my tasting room sales.-- Visiting
consumers come in, and say, 'oh, is this like <insert big brand here>?',
and I say 'it's the locally grown, elegant, sophisticated version - that's
why it's not in 6-packs of legacy ambers'. Works great."
It seems like there are at least two separate areas of challenge to tasting
room sales,
#1 getting people to take time out of their day and visit your tasting room.
#2 providing a unique experience along with a product they will want to
buy, asking the write questions so you can make improvements, and educating
those who are interested.
Did the six pack glucose-wine six-pack ciders bring people out to your place,
or was it the chain of winery signs? My first choice would be for customers
to ask 'oh, is this like <insert real cider brand here>?' Even that many
may be a tough act to follow, I would even rather have the question 'what
is cider/hard cider?'. I am curious how having to deprogram people why
cider doesn't really taste like a jolly rancher helps sell quality cider?
It seems like what you are saying is - it's easier to sell cider to someone
who has been mislead as to what cider is than someone who has no idea of
what cider is. I do not quite follow the logic?
Shawn Carney
It's true some wineries like Mogen David Wineries MD 20/20 may turn out
a product from concentrate in six weeks, but they are not following a
traditional wine making process.
------------------------------
Subject: RE: understanding your business
From: shawn@blossomwoodcidery.com
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 17:46:59 -0400
In digest #1402 Charles writes:
"I've seen at least parts of a couple cidery business plans since I started
my own. And I've got a strong hunch that most small business plans are
works of rationalization, rather than reason."
Probably but is this surprising if the people that wrote them were novices
and not people that have experience starting up businesses? I am sure
anyone who really wanted to put their money to work in the most effective
way wouldn't touch the "real cider" business. It may take a lot of work
but, just because the cider market is difficult to understand does not
mean you can't make a living with out having to flavor your cider.
"I agree. In my case, trying to learn from other businesses leads me away
from the apples (full stop) cider that my orchard happens to produce,
and towards things with wider consumer appeal."
Maybe you are looking at the wrong cider businesses as examples?
"I look at it as Quality:up, Identity:lateral change, Esthetics:more
common/less arty, Method:could be improved.
If you look at that description with an idea that Quality, Identity and
Esthetics are co-variates, then I bet you'll likely think I accepted
a quality drop, since my methods are less than 'pure' and my aim is for
a lower common denominator product. And I'll further bet that how you
think of those four variables is key to your opinion about BJCP guidelines
and competitions that use them. (If you do the competition thing at all,
that is.) "
I don't think anyone ever questioned your quality, but in general quality
of a cider and a cider really NOT having anything special about it are
two different things.
"1) Plan for an on-cidery tasting room as your major earnings source."
Of course you would have to take a serious look at your location first.
Shawn Carney
------------------------------
Subject: Lattanzi, cider, licorice, and the Grateful Dead
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 00:07:44 -0600
Mark Lattanzi's note in the last digest struck a chord with me but it took
a little bit to figure it out.
Part of Mark's idea is that you aim for the fanatics. Don't compromise
your principles (but don't be stupid about it either). Make your cider
for your limited audience, and make sure you get through.
What finally clicked was something from an interview many years ago with
Bob Weir, the rhythm guitarist for the Grateful Dead. He was trying to
explain the implausible appeal of the Dead. It came down to an analogy
that not everybody likes licorice, but some folks -really-REALLY- like
licorice. Not everybody likes the Dead; in fact most folks don't. But
some folks -really-REALLY- like them, and that was their audience. AND
it was more than big enough to keep them going, despite all their
idiosyncrasies. Many people, including a lot of critics, hated them for
their rough edges and lack of polish, yet they were one of the most
successful rock bands, ever, anywhere.
So take that back to Mark's posting. Make the cider you believe is right.
Listen to your audience, but don't dumb it down. Do figure out when you
have an audience and when you don't. But then when you see that you're
getting through to your target audience, work with it.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1403
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