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Cider Digest #1386
Subject: Cider Digest #1386, 28 May 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1386 28 May 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Sorry for the slow digest (Cider Digest Admin)
Re: Origin of Cultivars -- Clarification (Benjamin Watson)
Cider Day 2007 preview (Benjamin Watson)
Crab Apple Experiment (Donald Davenport)
RE: Cider matrix ("McGonegal, Charles P")
RE: Origin of Cultivars ("McGonegal, Charles P")
Cider Apple CD and French Pomona (Andrew Lea)
Re: Origin of Cultivars - Clarification (Dick Dunn)
www.cideraustralia.com.au ("Mark E. in Oz")
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Sorry for the slow digest
From: cider-request@talisman.com (Cider Digest Admin)
Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 17:13:03 -0600 (MDT)
Gentle readers:
(and the rest of you too)
My apologies for the long delay since the last digest.
No excuses; it just shouldn't have happened.
Dick
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Origin of Cultivars -- Clarification
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 08:46:53 -0400
Shawn Carney noted (very much on point):
> I think it?s a great idea but are you trying to define cider regions from
> scratch (for example the Great Lakes cider region was started in 2007 by
> Charles McGonegal) using apples that where grown there many years ago or are
> you trying to fabricate some sort of cider history that more than likely
> didn?t exist in that region many years ago using apples that where grown
> there in the past? I can?t imagine you?re suggesting 100 years ago or so
> the Great Lakes area (from NY to Minnesota) had a common cider style. Not
> to mention Canadian cider makers around the Great Lakes.
I agree, but my sense is that this is what Charles is trying to do --
otherwise why care about the origin of the apple varieties? It would
mean, theoretically, that a Great Lakes cider would be made (primarily
or exclusively) with apples that originated and were grown in that
region, I suppose. So this might create a region-specific type of
cider, and would to some extent control for the usual varietal
differences and take that variability out of the equation. Taken to its
logical extreme, it would involve creating an "A.O.C." for different
growing regions, with the listed "approved" varieties.
If this is indeed the idea, I think stating it like this points out
some of the difficulties in making this codified in terms of regional
style. First, let's take the "Great Lakes A.O.C." -- and let's be
generous and admit that Lake Champlain is really a Great Lake, too.
This would mean that the Great Lakes extend from western Vermont to
Minnesota, and the equivalent area north of the border. That's one heck
of an apple-growing region, and so many varieties have originated,
especially in New York, but also in neighboring states and provinces
that one would have an embarrassment of riches, and the number of
different apples available for pressing (and hence the varietal and
climatic variability) would be so great as to render any pan-regional
"style" fairly meaningless.
Second problem: apples are quite adaptable and have moved around quite
a bit. Jefferson had apple trees shipped from the Prince Nurseries on
Long Island down to Monticello by wagon. The excellent Harrison apple
actually originated in New Jersey and the Mid-Atlantic region. Yet it's
likely to figure prominently in the developing Southern cider region,
as it is being defined by folks like Diane Flynt (Foggy Mountain Cider)
and Chuck Shelton (Vintage Virginia Apples). And, to complicate matters
further, Rich Stadnik are sufficiently interested in Southern mountain
apples to have grafted some for our little nursery up here in New
Hampshire: Harrison, Graniwinkle, Hewes Virginia Crab, Yates, and
Black Twig (though this last, I suspect, is better for dessert than
cider).
Finally, over the past 10 years I've found that cidermakers are more or
less adventurous and willing to experiment with varietal blends, but
everyone seems fiercely independent and not inclined to join guilds or
have oversight over their use of varieties. Mixing varieties in a
combined press schedule, or fermenting single-variety juices and then
blending, results in a house or estate style of cider. The skill of the
cidermaker, the qualities of the various apples, and to a lesser extent
the use of yeast or other production decisions all contribute to a
distinctive cider.
Knocking down the size of the super-regions into smaller, more local
designations might make more sense in terms of varieties, but it's not
helpful in terms of defining broad regional cider styles in the context
of a competition or tasting.
Regardless, I think there's merit in pulling together the available
information on apple origins and uses. Tom Burford's catalog (updated
in 2004) is probably the best ready reference I've found.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Day 2007 preview
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 09:02:58 -0400
Many people on the Digest know about Cider Day (actually an annual
two-day event held in Franklin Co., Mass.).
This year's program is still in development, but Terry Maloney of West
County Cider and I have been talking about various possibilities, and I
thought I'd share what I know thus far, to whet people's appetite.
For the Saturday panel discussion/tasting, we are thinking of doing a
discussion of regional (vs. national) cider styles -- which is very
apropos, given Charles McGonegal's suggestion of defining regional
styles based on typical varieties and traditions. I have been in
contact with the Delegation du Quebec in Boston, and we're hoping to
have at least one or two Canadian producers represented.
We're also hoping to have new producers represented at the Cider Salon,
including some from Canada, Blue Mountain Cider from Oregon (they had
to demur last year), and Diane Flynt, who has just started making Foggy
Mountain Cider down in the Blue Ridge Mountains of western VA.
I've also suggested that we try and do a small tasting event on Friday
evening as a kickoff to Cider Day. In the past we've decided not to
focus on higher-proof cider products (pommeau, ice cider, and
Calvados). But I will bring up the idea to the Cider Day committee of
perhaps doing a cider spirits tasting at a local pub or bar.
Program details will be posted on the web this summer (probably in
early July) at www.ciderday.org. And the event will be held this year
on Nov. 3-4.
Hope to see many of you at this convocation in the fall. More details
to follow as they are available (or relevant).
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Crab Apple Experiment
From: Donald Davenport <djdavenport@earthlink.net>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 08:43:07 -0600
> I fermented crab apple (dolgo) in 2005 september, kept the cider until
> january 2007, and to see if yeast (lalvin 1118) was still alive added
> 1/2 teaspoon sugar/bottle (341ml) let it stand until last week .
> Resulting cider was quite sparkling, flowing lightly over the bottle,
> eventhough very acidic, pretty good. Just wondering how long yeast can
> survive............Denis Quebec
Glad Denis asked this, because it might get at a situation that's
been puzzling my friend and me.
We both put up batches of cider last year from home grown and pressed
apples. The blends and chemistry were similar. Both used 1118 yeast
with similar fermentation lengths and profiles.
I bottled and primed mine after about a month of bulk storage (after
initial fermentation to dryness). My friend waited an additional 2
months before bottling.
Herein lies the difference. He ended up with very lightly sparkling,
slightly sweet cider. It stopped at 1.005. Very little sediment.
(Quite good!) Mine rocketed through to bone dryness, threw a nice
layer of mud, and has considerably more carbonation.
Our theory at the time was that the additional time in bulk storage
must have somehow had an effect on the vitality of the yeast. Most
other factors were the same, with the exception that his orchard is
decades older than mine.
But if Denis can get 1118 to fire up after 2 years, it kind of blows
that theory. I'm wondering now if it might then have to do with
nitrogen levels.
Any thoughts?
Don Davenport
Santa Fe, NM
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider matrix
From: "McGonegal, Charles P" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 10:05:23 -0500
In CD# 1385, Richard Anderson suggests a cider classification system:
<snip>
My though would be to come up with a matrix. One Dimension would be the
cultivars. This might consist of categories like "Traditional Cider
Apples", "Heirloom Apples" and "Market Apples".
The second dimension would consist of cider processes and I offer the
following.
Ferment-Dry
Ferment-With Residual Sweetness
Ferment-Keeved
Ferment-Natural Yeast
Ferment-Commercial Yeast
Back Sweeten
Pasteurized
Unpasteurized
Flavor Adjuncts
Other?
At each intersection there would be an outcome and as you can see this
becomes very complicated but interesting project. I can see a lot of you
cringing at the thought. Add "Organic" and "Varital" and you get
additional dimensions. The Rubric Cube of Cider.
</snip>
I've also thought about defining styles with a system different from the
BJCP. I think that the Cultivar x Process matrix idea has some merits,
too. Coming up with the levels in each dimension is the trickier part.
My suggestion is to keep it small, which is tough, since each dimension
is more continuous than ordinal.
Cultivar - Varietal, Traditional (by region), Uncommon, Common
Process - Wild/Uncontrolled, Standard, Intensified, Specialty
The current BJCP style guidelines for cider (developed with the input of
Our Janitor, among others) are actually not so different from that
suggestion - which is why I used some of the same terms. Perhaps each
level could be defined a bit more explicitly - which leads us back to my
interest in research to help define that 'Traditional by region' level
for North American regions.
I think that the main issues that competitions (and competitors) using
the BJCP framework run into are in 1) how the Style Guide gets used in
practice (where process tends to be de-emphasized compared to final
result) 2) lack of standards in cider judge education. The latter leads
to problems like judges not being able to tell an authentic
Standard/Traditional cider from a simulated one (I'm guilty here - but
learning), or judges in a local region getting fixated on inappropriate
sensory characters as a fluke of local history.
The latter (#2) is also being actively worked on.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
PS: I use 'Uncommon' rather than 'Heirloom' on the advise of Tom Burford
- - who observed that the assocation of 'heirloom' with 'merit' is not
grounded in reality (lots of old apple cultivars are mediocre) - and has
led a lot of people to disappointment. He suggested 'Uncommon' as an
alternative not having that deceptive connotation. [Cider Days 2006] I
suppose that 'rare' also has no direct association with 'merit' either
(nothing preventing 'uncommonly bad', anymore than 'uncommonly good')
but for now, I'll run with Tom's suggestion.
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Origin of Cultivars
From: "McGonegal, Charles P" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 10:41:29 -0500
Shawn Carney writes:
<snip>
I think it?s a great idea but are you trying to define cider regions
from scratch (for example the Great Lakes cider region was started in
2007 by Charles McGonegal) using apples that where grown there many
years ago or are you trying to fabricate some sort of cider history that
more than likely didn?t exist in that region many years ago using apples
that where grown there in the past? I can?t imagine you?re suggesting
100 years ago or so the Great Lakes area (from NY to Minnesota) had a
common cider style. Not to mention Canadian cider makers around the
Great Lakes.
</snip>
I'm hoping, Shawn, that once we collect a pool of data, some regions
will start to appear by themselves. It may be that they won't, and if
cidermakers still like the idea, we invent regions. Not that I'd try to
claim setting the standard for a Great Lakes pommage (which would be
about 2002, anyway :-)
But to answer your question, yes, I've seen hints in my readings that,
for instance, the cultivar selection on both sides of Lake Erie, Lake
Ontario, and some distance along the St. Lawarence was similar,
historically. I thought it was in a Lew Nichols publication - but I
haven't been able to re-find it recently. I know that Steve Jackson had
collected a fair amount of this kind of info.
And that's why I think that the citations need to be documented in this
effort, darn it. So we can point to some existing history, or determine
if it's just another case of 'Young McGonegal reading about cider while
having had one cider brandy too many'
(Hmmm, cider brandy....)
Whoops - got distracted for a moment.
>From listening to Tom Burford last Cider Day, I've inferred that to find
that history, we'll have to track back to the time before the national
nurseries disrupted the previous system of private and local nurseries
which selected for local performance. I forget the dates on Tom's
timeline.
I'm also not suggesting that even if we _can_ put together such a
regional history, that we, as cidermakers, should be bound to it in all
that we do. But it would be great history, a good marketing point, and
it would be a great publicity hook for a competition or expo where all
of us who _can_ lay our hands on the right cultivars to showcase 1) how
the regional ciders vary when made by similar processes or 2) how
terroir impacts ciders made from the same assemblage of apples (pommage)
and the same process. Both commercial and non-commercial cidermakers
could particiapte in that kind of experiment.
Charles
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Apple CD and French Pomona
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 20:44:56 +0100
People might like to know that a wealth of reprinted cider texts have
suddenly become available, as follows:
1.Following their re-release of the "Herefordshire Pomona", a new CD of
Cider and Perry Vintage Fruit has just been made available by the
Marcher Apple Network. See http://www.marcherapple.net/vfruit.htm
It contains on disc some expensive and hard-to-find reference works,
including:
* Hogg and Bull "Apple and Pear as Vintage Fruits" (1886) (sadly the
first 86 pages of discursive text has been omitted from the CD).
* Knight's "Pomona Herefordensis" (1811)
* Bulmers Pomona (1987)
* Luckwill and Pollard "Perry Pears" (1963)
* Williams and Child "Identification of Cider Apples" (Long Ashton
Reports 1961 - 64 approx)
All line drawings and relevant colour plates are included. This is a
"must have" for anyone who needs to ID vintage cider and perry fruit
from the UK West Midlands and South West, or just wants to look over
this fascinating material and learn more about the varieties. It costs
£15 or $30 US.
2. The modern classic French book "Pommiers a Cidre", first published in
1997 but out of print for most of the last 10 years, appears to have
been reprinted and is now available again in paperback.
It can be ordered online for 85 euros (base price, plus shipping plus VAT).
See http://www.quae.com/livre/?GCOI=27380100118580&fa=description
I know some subscribers to this list have been trying to get hold of
copies for a while. Now is their chance!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Origin of Cultivars - Clarification
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 14:31:12 -0600
Charles McGonegal raised the big "origin of cultivars" question(s), which
I think is interesting and pretty cool (as long as somebody else is doing
the work!).
But then he's made the leap from "cultivar <X> originated in region <R>" to
"therefore there exists an <R>-region style by using cultivar <X>" (with
obvious extension to sensible blends including regional cultivar(s)).
That leap just isn't justified, for various reasons. Shawn Carney touched
on a couple already.
The idea of regional style based on origin of cultivar stretches the "local
food" concept past its breaking point. Particularly in the US, it is our
"melting pot" tradition to adopt and adapt whatever works. You need to
wait and see where the cultivars are actually used, and where they do best,
before assigning them to a region. When a good cultivar is developed and
rapidly spread around the country, it loses any special connection to where
it was created. It may ultimately develop a connection to a particular
area where it does well.
We're also looking at "regional style" as a marketing gimmick. At least
Charles is up-front about this, but let's keep the concepts straight: A
true regional style is developed through blends of particular cultivars,
adapted to what grows well and produces good character, and adapted again
to regional tastes, in an ongoing process. You can't get to a style like
that by drawing an arbitrary line around a "region" on a map, slapping a
name on it, and making up a bullet-list of cultivars.
The off-and-on mention of a "Great Lakes Style" illustrates this well.
The Great Lakes states comprise hundreds of thousands of square miles
spanning more than 20 degrees of longitude, a vast diversity of soil,
climate+weather, culture/history. And that's not even getting into the
Canadian side of it. It's simply too large and diverse to have the sort
of identity required for the context of a regional style.
In fact we've even seen a discussion of this in the past. Claude Jolicoeur
has talked about his Cortland varietal cider--and it really is both good
and distinctive; I've been privileged to taste it. But other folks trying
Cortland for cider have reported mixed results at best for cider even
though it is a "Great Lakes" cultivar.
Great Lakes is a -marketing- region, not a stylistic region. The folks in
the Great Lakes states (¿and provinces?:) can band together for promo,
competitions, etc., and that's all to the good. But it doesn't define a
regional cider style.
Also, back to origin of cultivars, there's some extra bogosity because the
region includes the NYSAES at Geneva. Seems like there's a bit of "Hey,
draw the regional boundary so that it includes me with Geneva so there's
lots of cultivars originating in 'our region'!"
(Would I be allowed to call myself a "Great Lakes Cidermaker" if I chose
to do so? I have birthright to it; I was born within a couple miles of
Lake Michigan! Even if I've been in Colorado "since before television"?
No, the proverbial accident-of-birth does not define me, nor does it
define the regional significance of a cultivar.)
You can't invent a regional style, and you can't rush it. Finally, keep
in mind that regional styles may not even be a good idea in the US. We
may find that our developing ideas of American cider aren't tied to
geography at all.
There are some eminent US cidermakers who are notably un-fond of
competition, and I suspect they'll be equally un-fond of invented regions.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: www.cideraustralia.com.au
From: "Mark E. in Oz" <mark@zymurgia.com>
Date: Mon, 28 May 2007 20:54:07 +1000
FYI folks - I never thought I would see the day!
- --
Cheers
Mark E. in Oz
- ----------------
www.zymurgia.com
> Entrants are now being sought for the Australian National and
> International Cider Judging Event to be held in South Australia in
> November 2007. We will be receiving local and national media coverage in
> newspapers, magazines and also television (Landline). Cider is now the
> fastest growing alcohol category in the world, and with the latest figures
> showing local sales up by 11%, Australia is set to follow the trend
> (Liquor Watch, May 2007).
>
> For more information on how to enter etc, visit www.cideraustralia.com.au
>
> John Jeffs
>
> Cider Tasting Australia
>
> Care of Post Office
> Lenswood
> South Australia
> Australia
> 5240
> Mob: 0409 289 019
> Fax: +61 8 8289 5531
> Email: cideraustralia@westnet.com.au
> Website: www.cideraustralia.com.au
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1386
*************************
