Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Cider Digest #1384
Subject: Cider Digest #1384, 11 May 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1384 11 May 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Origin of Cultivars (Benjamin Watson)
oxidizing cider? ("White Winter Winery, Inc.")
Origin of Cultivars - Clarification ("McGonegal, Charles P")
RE: Origin of Cultivars ("chris horn")
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the
message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them.
Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Origin of Cultivars
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 08:22:49 -0400
Charles McGonegal wrote:
> What sources are available for researching the geographic origin of
> apple cultivars? Does anyone know of reports, tables, books, articles,
> etc that have already been put together? Or is it going to be an HMS
> Beagle-like expedition into musty collections of ancient nursery
> catalogs?
Good thought, and particularly relevant to me these days because I'm
grafting and selling trees these days and also writing about apples.
Back in 2003, Tom Burford and I helped pull together the Slow Food USA
Ark of Taste apples list, in which we gave the origins by state of all
129 apple varieties (where known). And the 2004 edition of Tom's
self-published Apples: A Catalog of International Varieties (a useful
resource for anyone involved with apples) lists the origins of these
and many other varieties, both American (by state) and European (by
country, and sometimes more specifically). That book is available for
sale from Tom B., whose email address is burford@msn.com.
Other good references include Stilphen's The Apples of Maine, Beach's
Apples of New York (of course), and Calhoun's Old Southern Apples.
Yet, for a certain percentage of apple varieties, there is no clearly
identified place of origin. Perhaps this is where the HMS Beagle
investigation comes in -- though it would certainly need some research
funding from some source (if Michigan State or some other university
were to support it, I would consider taking on the task).
For other varieties, there is also some confusion as to where a variety
actually originated. In the Slow Food USA list of apples (which I think
can be accessed using the Ark & Presidia link on the website --
www.slowfoodusa.org), you will notice many varieties with a "fudge
factor" -- VA or NC, CT or NY. Presumably that's due to geography --
some apples in the Blue Ridge might have come from one side of the
mountains or the other -- or because of questionable information --
someone in NY State claiming that they originated a variety that
probably came from a tree or orchard in CT. So, even with the most
thorough historical research, some ambiguity would probably remain.
Also (and maybe this is a question for the Digesters to weigh in on),
if someone takes seeds from an apple and plants them in another state,
which state gets designated as the place of origin? The classic example
is Wealthy, which Tom Burford describes thusly:
"Wealthy originated from a seed of Cherry Crab planted by Peter Gideon
in Minnesota about 1860 from seeds that came from Albert Emerson of
Bangor, Maine."
To me, it seems logical to call Wealthy a Minnesota variety, since it
was a unique new variety, regardless of where the seed that originated
it came from (though it's interesting to know, and perhaps suggestive
of regions where it might grow well).
Maybe it's time for an American Pomona (or Pomorum), something that Tom
B. and I are presently working toward, at least in terms of apples.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: oxidizing cider?
From: "White Winter Winery, Inc." <goodmead@cheqnet.net>
Date: Sun, 06 May 2007 12:11:55 -0600
Dear Cider Digesters,
This last January/February I had the opportunity to visit the former
Soviet Republic of Georgia. While I was there an interesting question
was put to me about hard cider. Basically it turns black or dark brown
about 3-4 hours after opening the bottles. My first hunch was simple
oxidation, they do not use any SO2 and are not bottling in a closed
system. But it seemed like an awfully short time for the kind, and
intensity, of reaction he was describing to be just oxidation. My second
guess was over exposure to iron or some other metal in the process line
which in combination to air exposure (oxidation) was causing some
chemical reaction resulting in the black/dark brown discoloration. I
have included some questions and answers I had asked for the benefit of
clarification and trying to help with an explanation. I have added a few
comments of my own in the text to help clarify as well. Any
thoughts/best guesses out there on causes and cures?
Thanks for the assistance!
Jon Hamilton
Thank you for your interest regarding my ideas about apple ciders.
about your questions:
1. does it have any odd smell to it? No
2. is the producer using any iron pumps, fittings, tanks? Or for that
matter any copper, bronze or brass? basically with copper
3. do they use potassium metabisulfite? No
4. do they use any sterile filtration prior to bottling? This is not
bottling this is like wine in 20 lt glasses.
My guess is he means no sterile filtration is used
5. what is the pH and total acid of the juice prior to, and after
fermentation? acidity is around 4.0 %. He did not give a pH level
6. are they using a cultured yeast or a natural yeast fermentation?
only natural yeast fermentation
7. Do they keeve the cider?
no, he is doing like wine without of any additions
8. at what stage in the process does it turn black? in the bottle,
during fermentation, during settling?
wine is fine till use, when we open 20 l glass (bottles) and bring into
table, wine is starting to change color to brown in around 4-5 hours.
My friend here says "brown" but in country he described it as black or a
very dark brown, and not pleasant looking at all!
------------------------------
Subject: Origin of Cultivars - Clarification
From: "McGonegal, Charles P" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 09:14:10 -0500
I had previously asked the Digest for research sources to place
cultivars in a geography of origin.
It came up in a Dreaded Off Digest Reply <gasp> that I might need to be
a bit more specific. Which is good and reasonable.
I'm interested in North American cultivar history - US and Canada.
And I'll exapnd on _why_.
I've been lobbying the GLOWS organizers - and some BJCP folks - for the
last couple of years to expand the subcategories for 'standard' cider to
more geographic regions. The current categories are 'common', 'english'
and 'french'. And the reply is both reasonable and frustrating,
essentially being 'great idea, so what are the sensory profiles of these
new regions, and/or commercial examples?'.
And the reply is a well considered "Ummm..." I don't claim to be
brilliant _all_ the time :-)
So let me back that out to a goal and a couple of opinions/beliefs.
I have a goal, as a producing member of the craft cider community in the
US, to promote the development of cider, and especially, the development
of cider that expresses the land of its origin.
I believe that diversity and range of cider style is good for the cider
market.
I believe that playing to local origin and terroir is both good
marketing, and historically appropriate for cider.
I believe that the foundation of cider style (for standard cider, in
BJCP terms) lies in the blend of cultivars first. (Terroir and process
playing variable roles in the various substyles)
I believe that non-commercial producers and judgings/competitions have a
role to play in both discovering that character of regionally oriented
ciders, and in media/marketing outreach.
Which leads me back to the egg and chicken problem of introducing new
cider subsytles. I think that when the options are 'common', 'english'
and 'french', that people trying to make 'uncommon' cider are directed
to european sytles, rather than developing local ones. But we don't
have a good enough definition of regional US/Canadian ciders to judge
against. Toss in the frustrations of non-grower producers (commercial
and non-) having access to european cultivars, just for good measure.
So I'd like to take a different approach to this (admittedly long term
and possibly hopeless) project.
First - assemble a public database of cultivars tagged by geography of
origin. So when someone asks 'I want to make a Great Lakes cider.' (or
Mid-Atlantic, or Maritime Provinces, or Ozark/Southern Midwest), they'll
have a resource to research and say 'Ah, I start with _these_ apples.'
Second - encourage the production there of (both the cider and the
apples).
Third - recognize and promote excellent examples - and what we learn
about regional ciders in step two.
Charles
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Origin of Cultivars
From: "chris horn" <agent_strangelove@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 11:00:52 -0700
I think that you could get a lot of info out of about half a dozen books
(New Book of Apples, Apples of New York, Apples for the 21st Century, Old
Southern Apples, etc.) but it would just be looking at each listed variety
and see if it had a geographically origin listed.
But on the more regional level of things, yes old nursery catalogs but also
any orchard society publications. I know that The Home Orchard Society
(based locally) has occasional articles on regional cultivars. But again
this is not systematic and you would just have to comb through stuff. But
if you are just composing a simple table, start it and folks viewing it
could add origins to it from there local area.
Chris Horn
Scappoose Oregon USA
'Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in black
overalls and looks like work'
-Thomas Edison
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1384
*************************
