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Cider Digest #1416
Subject: Cider Digest #1416, 25 October 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1416 25 October 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
RE: UV and wild yeast. ("McGonegal, Charles P")
Disposal for grinding ("Christian Layke")
Wild yeast (was:Film yeast) (Tim Bray)
Yeast choices (Tim Bray)
RE: Wild Yeast (Shawn Carney)
Antique Press Restoration ("Joshua Van Camp")
Re: More on film yeasts etc (Claude Jolicoeur)
2007 Great Lakes Old World Syder Competition ("Jeff Carlson")
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Subject: RE: UV and wild yeast.
From: "McGonegal, Charles P" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:43:26 -0400
Andrew wrote:
>>
I am sorry to hear that. I have been lucky to obtain good results using
wild yeasts with partial sulphiting just as you did. And so did my Long
Ashton colleagues in the 1950's and 60's long before I started working
there. However, some of my friends in the UK tell me I've been banging
on about it far too much and I now have a reputation as the "wild-yeast
bore". So I'll say no more on the subject! (Oh except to add that
people were making (good?) wine and cider for centuries before the
introduction of cultured yeasts which have only become widespread in the
last 50 years!).
<<
That's why I phrased it the way I did - it's just the result from _our_
orchard. Doesn't say anything about anyone elses. I have a sneaking
suspicion that one reason why traditional cider making areas (European)
have decent luck with wild yeasts is that lees have been put back into
the orchards for a few hundred years. Could it be that 'wild' isn't
quite so wild anymore?
How long would it take to 'seed' an orchard with D254, I wonder?
<digression/>
On the film yeast discussion - if the organisms are endemic in the
building, maybe UV lights outside the tanks would make a difference -
contributing to surface sanitation, like in delis. I might also try a
periodic ozonated water mist, like is sometimes done in barrel cellars.
And, with steel tanks, you can at least drop the room humidity - which
would hurt barrels.
</digression>
<digression/>
And while I'm thinking of digest stuff - for the people interested in
Kingston Black, and who are growing their own - try Frequin Tardive de
la Sartha. It's got the phenolic character of the KBs, a good dose of
the 'densely fruity' character of Domaine and St. Martin, and comes into
fruit a whole lot earlier. At least for me. Better fresh than sweated.
</digression>
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Disposal for grinding
From: "Christian Layke" <CLayke@wri.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:35:49 -0400
I'm glad to see that folks have had success using a disposal to grind
their apples. I got one off e-bay last year and found it did very well
at grinding apples--too well in fact. I had apple slurry coming out,
which was very difficult to press.
Has anyone experimented with increasing the size of the hole that keeps
the food particles in the grinding chamber until they are fine enough to
be flushed by water?
Thanks,
Christian
------------------------------
Subject: Wild yeast (was:Film yeast)
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 07:48:30 -0700
Charles McGonegal wrote:
> (Both wild ferments were very sulfery compared to the commercial yeasts,
> with a lot of acetates in the nose. Both aged to straight vinegar. So
> much for using the native yeast in our orchard.)
Charles, do you mean to say that you got vinegar _instead of_ cider? Or
that the wild-yeast cider was not good enough, so you aerated it and
allowed it to go to vinegar.
My own experiments with spontaneous fermentations have not been very
successful either, and I have had several that went slightly sour - but
none that went "straight to vinegar" unless I let air into the
fermenter. (Which I am doing with most of last year's cider.)
I've pretty much come to the same conclusion though - my native flora
simply doesn't produce a great cider. Lalvin 71B and D47 have worked
well for me, and this year I might try RC212 - it sure makes an
interesting mead.
Cheers,
Tim
------------------------------
Subject: Yeast choices
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:01:40 -0700
> I've been able to acquire a load of kingston black apples which I intend
> to press as a single variety cider this week. I was wondering if anybody
> had a suggestion as to what yeast to use (I basically use lalvin 1118 for
> everything)
Congratulations on the KBs! My best ciders were produced with Lalvin
71B. It ferments slowly, leaving more apple character than the more
aggressive yeasts do, and it also metabolizes about half the malic acid.
The result is a smoother mouthfeel, allowing more of the flavor to
come through. It also ages very well.
D47 is also good. The White Labs "cider yeast" gave good results as
well. I have not liked the results I got with Cote des Blancs, Epernay
II, or any of the more aggressive champagne yeasts; nor with ale or
lager yeast.
> Also, I have access to a bunch of spring water plastic carboys. I know
> that they are not ideal as they let in oxygen but how real and serious
> is this problem. Thing is I've got them and they are free. I'm using them
> for first ferment but have been advised not use them for second. Any advice?
Use them for something else. Beer maybe - you could do primary in
plastic for up to 7 days or so and not get enough O2 to worry about.
But cider should ferment slowly, and in my experience the O2
transmission through the plastic over several weeks is sufficient to
cause some sourness.
Cheers,
Tim
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Wild Yeast
From: Shawn Carney <shawn@blossomwoodcidery.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 13:03:38 -0400
Andrew wrote:
"I have been lucky to obtain good results using wild yeasts with partial
sulphiting."
We have been lucky also, I suppose that if we had been unlucky we may have
been hesitant to keep down the wild yeast path. I would never encourage
anyone to use wild yeast, but still hope others are using it of their
own accord. I sulfite the same as what Charles and Andrew mentioned, our
cider has a fairly high PH compared to others (about 3.7). Last year it was
pretty cool in our cellar (about 50 f) when we pressed cider. But we did
some wild yeast perry in late August / early September when it was warmer,
one barrel of perry had a slight H2S smell and after fermentation probably
would have been fine after a good splash racking followed by a dollop of so2.
I was just playing around and didn't have the time to mess with it so I
just tossed it out. Im thinking that reduction isn't necessarily the end
of the world if you know how and when to deal with it. I am unclear on all
the factors that better ones luck for wild yeast ferments to be successful,
but I think maybe using wild yeast successfully means the cidermaker needs
to change their general philosophy of how to make cider (depending on what
their current philosophy is). We also do all our fermenting in barrels
which of course is less risky. I assume cool temperatures are better,
clean fruit and some level of SO2 (half the amount for a full kill I
was told) are essential, if making a dry cider what about nutrients?
This year I added complex nutrients and or yeast based nutrients to wild
yeast ferments but it may take a few more years of playing around to know
if that is a good ide'r. "wild-yeast bore" tell us some more.
Shawn
------------------------------
Subject: Antique Press Restoration
From: "Joshua Van Camp" <jvancamp@tc3net.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:54:04 -0400 (EDT)
Does anyone on the list have some recommended resources for antique cider press
restoration? I recently purchased an antique press and I am not sure the best
methods for refinishing the cast iron pieces, cleaning the wood to make it food
safe, etc. Any ideas? Links?
- -Josh Van Camp
jvancamp@tc3net.com
------------------------------
Subject: Re: More on film yeasts etc
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 00:43:18 -0400
In Cider Digest #1415, 17 October 2007,
Michael Arighi commented about my note in the previous CD about film yeasts:
>Subject: (more) More on film yeasts
>From: Michael Arighi <calzinman@earthlink.net>
>Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 21:26:20 -0700
>Claude gave us an interesting discussion on his experience with film yeasts
>under various conditions. I've had only very occasional trouble with film
>yeasts (I'll keep my fingers crossed). Seems like the one variable that
>might be relevant in the difference between Claude's friend's basement,
>his apartment, and his current home might be humidity.
There is one thing I forgot to mention in my previous post - it is that my
friend's basement is unfinished - the walls are concrete and the floor
gravel over soil. No way to clean this. And, yes, there is humidity. But my
impression was that the main reason would be that it is uncleanable - each
small cavity in the unfinished concrete and between gravel may become a
nest of bacteria...
However, the main point I wanted to make is that when such a problem
arises, it is important to try to improve the sanitation methods used, but
also the environment has to be considered.
Claude
------------------------------
Subject: 2007 Great Lakes Old World Syder Competition
From: "Jeff Carlson" <carlsonj@gvsu.edu>
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:50:10 -0400
This years GLOWS will be held December 8 and 9.
Complete information and registration packet can be found at.
http://www.michiganbeerguide.com/pdf/2007GLOWSEntry.pdf
Jeff Carlson
Lead Registrar
carlsonj@gvsu.edu
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1416
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