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Cider Digest #1398
Subject: Cider Digest #1398, 24 July 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1398 24 July 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: improvement suggestions (harsh reply) (Dick Dunn)
Re: cider competitions (Benjamin Watson)
fruit ciders (Benjamin Watson)
nursery question (Benjamin Watson)
Yeasts (Josh Klatt)
Malolactic fermentation (Josh Klatt)
Re: Cider Digest #1397, 21 July 2007 (Dennis Nicholson)
Re: Cider Digest #1397, 21 July 2007 (Scott Smith)
RE: A different opinion on cider ("Howard, John")
more competition chatter ("Mike Beck")
Re: A different opinion on cider (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Re: improvement suggestions (harsh reply)
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 23:05:01 -0600
"Timothy" <tboger111@earthlink.net> wrote:
> This fall will be my second year of making hard cider...I made 30
> gallons last year and plan the same quantity this year....very strong
> 10-12%....my question is: Could anyone give me a suggestion as to how to
> make it less harsh.....seems acidic too.....first several sips are
> tuff...of course after several sips it gets easier......any ideas to
> share? Tim
To Tim, and to anybody else asking for suggestions on how to improve your
cider: Would you please be so kind as to TELL US WHAT THE HECK YOU DID?!?!?
What apples did you use?
Where are you?
What yeast did you use?
Did you add sugar?
What was the starting gravity?
What was the final gravity?
Did you rack? If so, when and how often?
Did you sulfite? If so, when and how much?
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera
There are many good and experienced people on this list who can help you,
and will do so, if you will only make it possible for them to do so.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: cider competitions
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 09:54:41 -0400
Wow . . . cider competitions really get people's juices flowing (no pun
intended).
I find points of agreement with almost everyone, but in general I'm
okay with the "big tent" view of cider, and do not feel as threatened
as I once might have been about sweeter, fizzier, glucose wines running
away with everything. But sweet is a style -- to me, if it's well made,
I can respect the product, even if it's not something I would drink
every day. I enjoy a sip of Black Star Farms cider, or Beanblossom
cider from Oliver Winery in Indiana, and those are both pretty sweet .
. . but well-made. They were both enthusiastically received at Cider
Day in the past. But are they "artisanal" products? I dunno -- we still
struggle with that definition, and perhaps it's not that relevant.
A few years ago, we hashed this whole question out when I was trying
to define "American artisan cider" for Slow Food USA. In the end we
came down to the definition used by Dick Dunn: 100% fresh-pressed apple
juice, with only fermentation aids (not adjuncts like sugar,
flavorings, etc.).
For Slow Food's purposes, that definition works well. For cider as a
whole, it quite clearly doesn't describe what many commercial (and
amateur) cidermakers are doing. It's a messy world out there, folks. In
a way I think it's okay that we can't pigeonhole ciders into neat
little categories. My only issue with competitions is with fairness --
it's patently unfair to put Farnum Hill or Westcott Bay cider in the
same tasting niche as Woodchuck Dark n' Dry or Strongbow or Quebec ice
cider.
I think this is the influence we as the cider cognoscenti can have over
these competitions -- to ensure that we are (you'll pardon the
expression) comparing apples to apples, and not lumping everything
together. That seems to obvious to those of us who make and enjoy
cider. Yet not so many years ago, Eric Asimov of the New York Times
organized a "cider tasting" panel (including my friend and fellow Slow
Foodie Garrett Oliver, the brewmaster at Brooklyn Brewery). I didn't
mind so much that Asimov used people who didn't really "know" cider.
But I did mind that they simply rounded up every commercial cider they
could find in NYC and went to tasting them indiscriminately head to
head against each other. Literally, they gave a better score to
Woodchuck Dark n' Dry than to Farnum Hill's cider. And in a more recent
tasting in the Wall Street Journal, the "journalist" vastly preferred
Black Star's very simple, sweet, straightforward cider to Farnum Hill's
Kingston Black, which he excoriated as "trying to be wine instead of
tasting appley," or some rot like that.
People should drink what they want, of course -- and human beings (not
just us stupid Americanos) are predisposed to liking a bit of sweetness
on the palate. In a couple of weeks I'm participating in a panel
tasting for 250 people at the American Cheese Society annual
conference. What did they call the panel? "Cider and Dessert Wine
Pairings with Cheese" (arggh). It will be okay, but I had to insist
that we serve the two ciders at the beginning, rather than following
the Quebec ice cider and Ontario ice wine.
And all of these examples are from professional food people --
journalists and "experts" who should know better. Clearly, we have a
long way to go in terms of educating people into cider culture and
distinctions. Not telling them what to like -- that's a fool's errand.
But educating them enough to at least recognize and appreciate a
well-made cider when they taste it. That's a heavy responsibility, and
one we should take seriously. I don't think it's especially useful, or
productive, to be throwing brickbats at each other, or at competition
judges. It's an ongoing process, developing an American cider culture.
But I see some progress and cause for cautious optimism, including
with BJCP, if we all just keep monitoring these events, weighing in,
and trying to keep our criticisms constructive (hard as that sometimes
is for people who are passionate and opinionated).
I'm still ambivalent about competitions. As an amateur, I will probably
still submit a bottle of the odd batch that I think is particularly
good to a competition. But I expect nothing, because I make my cider
for myself and my friends who enjoy it. If I'm happy, and they're
happy, I don't need any further validation.
I'm pondering these issues in advance of sending out my annual Call
for Ciders to Cider Day 2007. And it makes me happy that we have an
event like this, where producers and cider fans can both participate
without having the added pressure of who's getting a medal or whether
it's fair. People can taste a wide variety of ciders and discover the
producers and styles they like best. It won't replace competitions,
but from the purely educational and marketing perspective, I think
Cider Day still provides an important forum.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: fruit ciders
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 10:08:00 -0400
Here's something that will probably strike Digesters as obvious or
dumb, but I'm trying to sort out in my own mind the distinction between
fruit ciders and ciders flavored with fruit.
I made a small batch of what I call, in a shorthand way, "Cherry
Cider" this spring -- using a couple of gallons of my 2005 cider and
adding some unsweetened cherry juice post-fermentation. Beautiful red
color, nice and dry -- but it definitely tastes like cider, not cherry
soda. Still, I would describe this as "cider naturally flavored with
cherries" if I were submitting to a contest or just being careful and
honest.
However, when I've made other batches, like a perry (50% pear juice,
50% apple juice) or a raspberry cider, where the fruit is added to the
fresh juice pre-fermentation, then I would have no problem calling them
pear cider/perry and raspberry cider, because the other non-apple
fruits are actually contributing to and influencing the fermentation
process.
So far, so good. But here's a controversial notion: if we add the fruit
or non-apple juice to the fresh apple juice pre-fermentation, I would
even argue that such fruits do not constitute "adjuncts" at all -- but
primary fermentation components. And, as such, I could see expanding
the definition of "craft ciders" to include certain things that are
there from the beginning. Does this mean that you could make an
"artisanal" New England style cider using raisins in the primary? And
where do we draw the line in that case? For instance, how is sugar
added pre-fermentation different from raisins? After all, sucrose
breaks down into fructose and glucose, identical to the sugars present
in apple juice.
To me, fruit added at the beginning seems acceptable in making a craft
(albeit specialty) cider. But I have a bigger problem with refined
products like sugar, honey, etc. What do others think, though? Is this
a distinction without a difference?
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: nursery question
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 10:20:13 -0400
On a completely different note from competitions, cider styles, etc., I
have a practical question for apple growers out there.
The little Monadnock Heritage Nursery looks good these days, since we
weeded the beds. However, only slightly more than 20% of the trees that
Rich Stadnik and I grafted this year have leafed out (the scions, I
mean -- the rootstocks have leafed out like crazy below the graft
union, and in fact we've had to pick the lower leaves off).
I find this nerve-wracking, but on most of the trees, the buds in the
scions seem green and alive -- they just aren't putting out leaves yet.
We have had a rather cool and wet summer in New Hampshire, and this may
account for part of the problem, but what else could be causing this,
and (more importantly) is there anything we can do about it? I find it
highly unlikely that we screwed up 80% of the grafts this spring -- and
there doesn't seem to be much consistency in terms of variety, scion
source, etc. in terms of what has taken so far and what hasn't
(although our Southern apples are generally doing well, as are our RI
Greening, Granite Beauty, Red Astrachan, and Red Gravenstein.
Any advice from more experienced to novice orchardists would be
welcome. The trees were planted in newly tilled ground with pretty
good soil and moisture retention (an old horse pasture); I did work in
some colloidal rock phosphate into the beds before setting the trees,
but we haven't given them any other nitrogenous fertilizer or compost.
I suppose we just continue to wait and hope for consistently warmer
weather. But I'd like these trees not to be putting out new growth in
September, right before frost.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Yeasts
From: Josh Klatt <josh@klattcider.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 21:45:35 -0400
Hey all--
Any opinions/observations on liquid vs. dried yeasts?
Which (brand / strain) are suited for cider? Which are not?
I was pretty disappointed in a recent batch of cider pitched with
Munton's ale yeast (I was warned against it, but had to see it for
myself). It was completely undrinkable...
How about experience with stirring the lees during and after
fermentation?
Thanks!
Josh
------------------------------
Subject: Malolactic fermentation
From: Josh Klatt <josh@klattcider.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 22:19:49 -0400
Anybody observe or induce malolactic fermentation? It seems to be
key for winemakers but I've never heard mention of it in cider
circles... Are we missing out on something?
Josh
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1397, 21 July 2007
From: Dennis Nicholson <dennisnicholson@mac.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 20:15:23 -0700
Subject: Bruce Nissen's comments
From: Dennis Nicholson<dennisnicholson@mac.com)
Date: July 22, 2007
I appreciated Bruce Nissen's refreshing and straight forward comments.
We need to hear more about the economics of cider making. More about
the marketing strategies of cider and perry products from people that
have been successful. The old rancor about what is cider and what is
cool-aid makes no sense if our customers want cool-aid.
Dennis Nicholson
Nicholson Orchards.
509-548-9152
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1397, 21 July 2007
From: Scott Smith <scott@cs.jhu.edu>
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 10:34:58 -0400
On Jul 22, 2007, at 12:37 AM, Steve Wood wrote:
> We aren't making enough good, real ciders in this country to bother with
> competitions. I don't want a medal; I just want to keep improving my
> horticultural practices, my fruit, and my ciders. If we're going to chat,
> argue and collaborate, let's do it over something real. Cider apples, land,
> climate, and cider, for example.
Hear, hear!
How about cider-making@talisman.com for those wanting to chat about
making quality cider, and cider-politics@talisman.com for those who
want to chat about competitions. Then I can conveniently avoid all
the competition posts by not subscribing to the latter one :-)
I am going to get my first nontrivial crop of cider apples this
year. Frequin Rouge on G16 has proven to be my most precocious and
productive variety, but it is unfortunately quite early compared to
the rest of them. Fireblight has been horrible this year, with
hundreds of small strikes pruned out. I have only lost one of 150
trees so far, though. I expect I will be spraying antibiotics next
year, something I have been trying to avoid.
Scott
------------------------------
Subject: RE: A different opinion on cider
From: "Howard, John" <jhoward@beckerfrondorf.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 10:59:57 -0400
I agree with Bruce's market analysis.
Bruce wrote,
"...I liken the current cider market in the US to the wine market in the
late 1970's. Then came Sutter Homes and other companies who made sweet
Chardonnay's and White Zinfandels. It created a whole new set of wine
enthusiasts who fueled the resurgence of the wine industry in the US
that is still going strong today. Nearly all new consumers used these
lighter style products as an entry point into the world of wine. Some
stayed with them, while many moved to more complex wines.
Regardless of your opinion of lighter styled wines, the industry as a
whole owes them a debt of gratitude for bringing new consumers through
the front door."
The only difference is that the cider industry is virtually starting
from scratch. At least you could ask an eccentric uncle about wine.
Still, it is only a matter of time until a display of serious cider is
put up next to the cases of Magners down at the local outlet.
In the meantime, congratulations to Steve Wood for placing his
superlative product in one of the hottest (and best) new restaurants in
Philadelphia!
Cheers,
John Howard
Philadelphia PA USA
------------------------------
Subject: more competition chatter
From: "Mike Beck" <mjbeck@ujcidermill.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 23:08:38 -0400
CD'rs
I agree with Bruce Nissen's coments "A different opinion on cider." CD #1397
I also agree with Charles McGonegal that competitions may be immature is
true for many competitions, however, several have been judging ciders for a
long time (mostly wine comp's like Indy, Eastern, etc.) Other "Beer"
competitions have been doing this for a while with their very structured
guidelines. Judges at all of these competitions are very capable of being
able to tell what is well made. (No matter what the brand) I do agree with
Steve Wood that I want to improve everything I'm doing Blossom to Bottle.
However, I would never ever expect competitions to improve any of those
things. What they can do is help you market that product once all the hard
work is done. I have seen it work for myself and many others. I'm sorry all
you haters out there but I do not think you will see these (competitions) go
away. Get involved and help be proactive to improve them. FWIW
Shawn Carney comments in CD #1396
"The good news is that cider continues to increase in popularity and
attention. I still can't figure out how to make any money from craft
cider, but at least there's demand for the product. My neighbours love it."
Shawn, I have seen more than a few artisanal, craft, small, whatever
cidery/wineries operate and run black ink. I'm sorry you can't make the math
work. But it is nice to have neighbors that love you.
[Janitor's note: Since I happened to notice this in prepping the digest:
Folks, **PLEASE** mind your attributions! That wasn't Shawn's comment;
it was Tim Bray's.]
Mike Beck
Uncle John's Cider Mill
Uncle John's Fruit House Winery & Distillery
St.Johns, MI
------------------------------
Subject: Re: A different opinion on cider
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 09:06:11 -0600
I hope that after the dust settles, the conflict between Shawn and Bruce
will clarify some ideas for us. Meantime...several of Bruce's points
beg for response:
[quoting Shawn and responding]
> "I do not enter competitions and probably never will"
>
> A saying that come to mind is that those who can do, those who can't
> critique. If you do not believe in the concept than why does it worry you
> so? To me it's like democracy; if you chose not to participate, your voice
> rings hollow.
(And if the "democracy" is not real, but a pretense?)
Even if Shawn -were- inclined to enter competitions, why would he enter a
sham competition that only damages cider's reputation and prospects?
There's a class of arguments--"Don't criticize if you aren't involved",
"If you think you can do better, show us", etc.--which are intended to
deflect valid criticism of jobs badly done. Being able to recognize a
bad job is separate from being able (or willing) to do the job yourself.
And if the badly-done-job causes problems, it's open for criticism.
A saying that comes to MY mind is "Don't lend your hand to raise no flag
atop no ship of fools."
> "From Chad's email It seems like he contacted juice (sweet cider) mills?
...
> This is one area where I truly disagree with your demeanor. I believe from
> the remainder of the content of his email that we can gather that he
> contacted hard cider producers,...
I don't think we can gather that at all. That might even be the reason he
got no responses from the "cider mills" he contacted.
>...He did something to
> help promote cider by holding a judging. He did something, and therefore I
> believe he deserves the cider worlds support...
Why do we owe support to somebody who did a bad job???
> Shawn wants to define "cider" in such a way that it excludes nearly every
> profitable cider organization in the world...
You're begging the question...or doing the flip side of what Shawn's doing:
you want to define cider so as to include profitable organizations even if
they don't make what we'd call cider.
> ...Anybody that
> wants to see the hard cider industry, sweet and dry, develop needs to be
> embracing the whole industry, not creating division within it.
The past decade or more should have shown us that this is wrong: Keeping
the glucose-wine six-pack ciders in the fold damages quality cider. It
interferes with getting cider high enough in the market to be able to get
a reasonable price for quality full-juice ciders. It keeps cider as a
marginal competitor to wine coolers (which aren't even wine) and other
get-drunk-quick concoctions like hard ***ade.
> Fox Barrel Cider Company makes three high quality hand-crafted sweet ciders
> using the English production system favored by Mr. Peter Mitchell...
1. "hand-crafted": That's such a pretty marketing phrase, isn't it? But
it doesn't actually -mean- anything, does it?
According to a published report, you made 8000 cases last year and
intend to make 24,000 cases this year. That's almost two hundred
thousand bottles last year, and heading for half a million this year?
Seems like hand-crafting on that scale implies either a lot of hands
or not much craft! And whose hands, anyway? You're buying in your
juice.
(But why -would- you "hand-craft" at that production level, for what
you're making, anyway?)
2. "sweet ciders": According to a June, 2007 story in the Sacramento
Business Journal,
"The company's ciders are dry and crisp, rather than sweet like
other ciders on the market, said founder and co-owner Bruce Nissen.
'We make cider for adults.'"
So are your ciders dry, or sweet, or does it depend on the context of
the article?
3. Invoking Peter Mitchell's name means a lot less than you seem to think.
He IS a good teacher, and he can make good cider. But there's no magic
here. His value comes from gathering all the right info and making
sure you know it. It's not a specific "English production system".
In fact, a lot of UK craft cidermakers operate differently from what
Peter suggests on several key points. Again, why does it matter?
You're not making English-style ciders now anyway?
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1398
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