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Cider Digest #1372
Subject: Cider Digest #1372, 6 March 2007
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1372 6 March 2007
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
digest restarting (tentatively) (Cider Digest Admin)
Re: Cider Digest #1371, 27 February 2007 (Bill Rhyne)
RE: Ice Cider ("McGonegal, Charles P")
Re: Cider Digest #1371: Ice Cider: ("John C. Campbell III")
Re: Lactose (and tannin) (Pietro Toniolo)
Re: Cider Digest #1371, 27 February 2007 (Stephen Wood)
Historical Downloads (Andrew Lea)
Re: Film yeasts (Claude Jolicoeur)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: digest restarting (tentatively)
From: cider-request@talisman.com (Cider Digest Admin)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2007 12:20:47 -0700 (MST)
It -appears- that the virus-infected machine which was forging cider-request
return addresses has been fixed somehow. Can't tell for sure yet, but I
need to get the digest moving again.
So I've re-enabled the admin address and (as you see) I'm sending a digest--
everything is -temporarily- back to "normal". We'll see if it works out.
And PLEASE keep your virus software up-to-date! (yes, I hear the small
chorus, "or get a Mac or a Linux machine"...)
- ---
Cider Digest cider-request@talisman.com
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor Boulder County, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1371, 27 February 2007
From: Bill Rhyne <bill_rhyne@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:16:36 -0800 (PST)
RE: Best French cider question from Matthew Jeffs
This is old impressions but when we(Rhyne Cyder clan) were researching
ciders, we tasted what was available locally in California and found the
brand, Herout et Fils, to offer a nice flavor. They are from Normandy. It
was low alcohol with some sparkle and a touch of residual sweetness. Eric
Bordelet also makes some quality ciders but I am not sure what you have
access to in Australia.
What is "Best" is more a personal preference in my view but these two would
be a good starting place.
Bill Rhyne
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Ice Cider
From: "McGonegal, Charles P" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:17:26 -0600
Celia,
This falls into what I call 'Intensified Cider'. You can concentrate by
'factional crystalization' before or after fermentation.
Post-fermentation is commonly (but not universally) called 'apple jack'.
It's neither legal in the US, nor healthy to drink habitually.
Concentration _Pre-Fermentation_ _is_ legal. Concentrating the juice by
pressing of frozen apples is the most 'artistic' way - but also the
hardest.
If you concentrate to about 20-25 Brix (% sugar) and ferment to near
dryness, you end up with an apple wine (>7%ABV) a number of people call
'Cidre Fort' or strong cider.
If you concentrate up over 30-35 Brix and ferment to an endpoint that's
still rather sweet (~10% residual sugar), you get an apple wine commonly
(in Canada) called 'ice cider' or 'pomme de glace'
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
Subject: Ice Cider
From: Celia Congdon <crrbc@comcast.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 11:02:46 -0800
Dear Cider Digest,
I noticed from somewhere that you can make ice cider using frozen cider.
I have some in the freezer from our apple pressing.
Do I concentrate it using the frozen distillation process and then put
the concentrate through fermentation?
Any suggestions welcome.
Thanks,
Celia
Vashon Island, WA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1371: Ice Cider:
From: "John C. Campbell III" <jccampb@tseassoc.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:31:35 -0500
> Subject: Ice Cider
> From: Celia Congdon <crrbc@comcast.net <mailto:crrbc@comcast.net>>
> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 11:02:46 -0800
> Dear Cider Digest,
> I noticed from somewhere that you can make ice cider using frozen
> cider. I have some in the freezer from our apple pressing. Do I
> concentrate it using the frozen distillation process and then put the
> concentrate through fermentation? Any suggestions welcome. Thanks,
> Celia Vashon Island, WA
Celia; If you're talking about frozen 'juice' (unfermented), then have
fun but I'd be very cautious making 'ice cider' if what you are talking
about is in fact what we used to call "apple jacks" (taking actual
'cider' ... hard cider and freezing it.)
Years ago, one of my first cider attempts in the early '70's. I'd let
some cider get "hard" and then put it outside in a plastic washtub on
the coldest night of the year. Making applejack by fractional
crystallization (aka, freezing) is illegal in the US as well, and
probably as much for health reasons as loss of revenue for the Bureau of
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (quite an explosive combination).
Nevertheless it is fairly easy to make, and no one the wiser, which is
why farmers in cold climates have made applejack (or "cider oil"),
despite the occasional nuisance the Temperance movements, Prohibition, etc.
I have made small amounts of applejack experimentally. It involves
freezing fully fermented still cider during the coldest time of the
year, and repeatedly draining off or separating the concentrated liquid
"heart" from the water ice matrix. The strength of the applejack will
depend on how low the temperature drops and hence how fully the liquor
gets concentrated. At 0 deg. F nighttime lows, the resulting applejack
should come in around 28 proof (14% abv.), about the strength of Madeira
or other fortified wine; at 5 deg. F, you might get only 10% abv., which
is about the strength of Canadian "ice cider", which is made in a
different way -- by freezing the fresh juice (or the apples right on the
trees, then pressing), and then fermenting the
concentrated juice.
The danger of course with applejack is that you are concentrating all
the bad stuff in what you ultimately end up drinking (the "heads" and
the "tails" that would be discarded from the run of an alembic still.
When freezing applejack, you are discarding the pure ice and keeping the
impure liquor. All of this makes for an exciting sipping drink, after
straining through activated charcoal, bottling, and waiting a year or
two minimum. A fellow I knew used to say that a small glass would
sometimes even set his leg to twitching slightly, which might be what
was once known as "cider palsy." Personally, I wouldn't want to have an
applejack hangover.
jccampb (John C. Campbell III)
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Lactose (and tannin)
From: Pietro Toniolo <ptoniolo.do_not@spam_me.tin.it>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:41:29 +0100
> Andrew Lea wrote:
>
> Lactose is only one-fifth as sweet as sucrose (cane or beet sugar). So
> if you would normally add 1 - 2% sucrose to a dry cider to sweeten it,
> you will need 5 - 10% lactose to obtain an equivalent sweetness. Quite a
> lot!
I tried to taste increasing amounts of lactose in water, and I'm afraid
that to be sure to have an effect (on an acidic cider!), one has to use
at least the same amount of lactose contained in milk!
That's really too much. And I don't want to have problems with my
lactose-intolerant frinds (unless I drink all of my cider!).
I didn't think about the effect of MLF on lactose, either.
- -------------------
> Dick Dunn wrote:
>
> Hold on. A teaspoon of tannin to what quantity of cider?
24 liters, 6 US gal.
> I don't know what you have for tannin in Italy, but that which is available
> to the amateur in the US is rather mean stuff, and relative to our typical
> batch size (5 US gal or 19 liters) I'd use no more than a quarter teaspoon
> (1.25 ml).
I use apple juice not obtained from cider-specific apple varieties: it's
just a drinkable apple juice, unsweetened, form a hard-discount shop
(Lidl). Good taste, but definitely not enough sharp for a cider, imho.
For my last cider I tried some tasting before bottling, and I went for
two teaspoons for my "standard" 24 liters.
Anyway, I just followed the indications from Andrew's site:
"If the tannin levels are too low because no bittersweet
fruit was used, it is possible to increase them by the
addition of grape or other food grade tannin (in 0.1%
steps) until a satisfactory level is achieved."
I assume that that percentage is by weight; if I read it right, 0.1% of
24 liters (around 24kg) is something around 24g, that is, around 1oz.
The tannin I use comes from a homebrew shop, I think I bought it
directly in the US, NorthernBrewer or MoreBeer...
> As for lactose: the trouble is that it is not particularly sweet, but it
> contributes to mouthfeel. I've not used it in cider, only in beers, but
> there the sense is to give a somewhat "full" mouthfeel. I don't know how
> to describe it properly, other than somehow the opposite of "thin", but
> not always in a positive sense. If I were to try it in a cider I would
I know what you mean. I'm a big beer drinker!
Well, I understand that my idea of using lactose as a sweetener is not
so good, anyway.
> definitely apply it only to part of the batch, and compare.
Thanks to both of you, I think I'll follow Dick's suggestion, and for
this time try to sweeten only some of my bottles, just to see what will
be the effect after carbonation, aging... and MLF!
Pietro Toniolo, Italy
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1371, 27 February 2007
From: Stephen Wood <swood@farnumhillciders.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:16:12 -0800
Dear Pietro,
If you think your cider needs lactose, glucose and tannin, all out of
bags, shouldn't you consider drinking some nice wine or beer for the
next few months, and trying again next harvest? I've thrown out
thousands of gallons over the years -- I learned from them all, but
they were all ciders I didn't want to drink or sell. At the end of the
day, I think it's important to remember that you can buy some very
pleasant, un-(or barely) adulterated wine, beer, and cider for not very
much money. Making a batch of cider doesn't oblige you to drink it --
we should all save our weary livers to work on things that smell and
taste nice. In any event, I'm with Dick: "Hold on..." With respect,
I think you should put the lactose and glucose on the garden, maybe
fool around with small amounts of sucrose (which won't alter the
essential character of your cider), and CO2 (if you really want
bubbles). If small additions of one or both of those don't please you,
open the bottom valve, go to the wine shop, and try again next year
with this experience under your belt.
Steve Wood.
------------------------------
Subject: Historical Downloads
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2007 21:43:26 +0000
The various projects to scan and digitise historical books are beginning
to impact on cider sources too.
I just discovered the following three available for free download from
the University of California Berkeley Agriculture Library:
"Report on the results of investigations into cidermaking, carried out
on behalf of the Bath and West and Southern Counties Society in the
years 1893-1902 (1903) by FJ Llloyd".
http://www.archive.org/details/reportonresultso00grearich
This is the classic series of experiments (the 'Butleigh trials' )
sponsored by the Bath and West Society and Neville Grenville in the UK,
which led to the foundation of the Long Ashton Research Station. There
is still plenty of value in this 145 page report to interest the serious
craft cidermaker today, and a number of pertinent remarks about the
state of the market which are no less true than when they were written!
(Though I can't agree with his denigration of sulphur dioxide!)
"A view of the cultivation of fruit trees, and the management of
orchards and cider; with accurate descriptions of the most estimable
varieties of native and foreign apples, pears, peaches, plums, and
cherries, cultivated in the middle states of America: illustrated by
cuts of two hundred kinds of fruits of the natural size .. (1817)" by
William Coxe. http://www.archive.org/details/viewofcultivatio00coxerich
The first American fruit book, and an absolute classic. Interestingly,
it contains quite a lot of cidermaking information too, much of it drawn
from the work of the Herfordshire cider pioneer Thomas Andrew Knight,
with whom Coxe corresponded. Coxe himself was a New Jersey cidermaker
of some renown.
"The American orchardist; or, A practical treatise on the culture and
management of apple and other fruit trees, with observations on the
diseases to which they are liable, and their remedies. To which is added
the most approved method of manufacturing and preserving cider. Comp.
from the latest and most approved authorities, and adapted to the use of
American farmers (1822") by James Thacher.
http://www.archive.org/details/americanorchardi00thacrich
Following close on the heels of William Coxe, the second American fruit
book! Another great read with plenty of practical cidermaking
information gleaned from US and European sources too.
The same site also contains Beach's "Apples of New York" (both volumes)
and apple books by Bunyard and Thomas. These downloads are big (tens of
megabytes) but worth it if you have a broadband connection. The online
'flip book' versions are fun to read too. ASCII text versions are also
available for only kilobytes of download but are much more difficult to
peruse and understand.
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Film yeasts
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2007 18:27:52 -0500
There has been a few notes on film yeasts in digests 1368 and 1369.
For my part, I have had such films on some of my ciders. However, since I
moved in my actual home 12 years ago, where I have been able to install a
quite nice cider room, such films occured much less often. Before, I often
had to use a friend's basement to ferment my ciders - this basement was
quite humid and I assume all sorts of bacteria lived there. During the 3
years I used that basement, almost half of my batches had this film. The
few times this has occured during the last years was usually related to a
mistake or a component failure, resulting in a contamination with airborne
bacteria.
I must say that I have never enjoyed these contaminated ciders very much.
And although Andrew says this is not a disaster, I do think it affects the
cider quality. The cider remains drinkable, but if there is another batch
besides that I think tastes better, I never get to drink the batch that got
the film... So, it usually never gets drank as cider, although I will use
some in the kitchen.
Claude Jolicoeur
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1372
*************************
