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Cider Digest #1341
Subject: Cider Digest #1341, 30 September 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1341 30 September 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
RE: Cider Digest #1340, 26 September 2006 ("patrick j farell")
Re: OESCO style grinders (Terry Bradshaw)
Re: Natural vs Whites Yeast and sweetness (Terry Bradshaw)
Quebec visit (Bradley and Caitlin Hunter)
Re: varieties of trees for cider (Hendrixfarms@aol.com)
Re: Natural vs Whites Yeast and sweetness (Roy Bailey)
cider-touring England - some other resources (Dick Dunn)
UK Perry Fest. ("chris horn")
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Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1340, 26 September 2006
From: "patrick j farell" <sibleyorchards@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 07:25:39 -0500
I'm looking for a Goodnature Press 200----call me. Pat
Patrick J. Farrell
Sibley Orchards and Cider Mill
4121 California Ave.
Sibley, Missouri 64088
816-650-5535
816-589-0674 c
www.sibleyorchards.com
sibleyorchards@hotmail.com
------------------------------
Subject: Re: OESCO style grinders
From: Terry Bradshaw <terryb@lostmeadowvt.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:01:24 -0400
Jason:
What size motor do you use? My grinder has a 220v, 2 hp motor with
double belt pulley. Loud but very effective. Even with that it
sometimes slows down if I feed it too fast. I can grind 5 bushels in
under five minutes, and that includes switching catch buckets, one per
bushel.
> We use an OESCO style grater for our cider production, but seem to have
>difficulty adjusting the plates which control the inflow of fruit to
>the right point. If we set the plates so that our pomace is of a
>desired consistency, larger fruits get wedged and won't go through the
>grinder; conversely, if we set the plates so that all of our fruit goes
>through, the pomace has larger chunks of apple in it than would give a
>good yield in the press.
> I know these grinders are common, so this must not be a problem for
>everyone- I doubt many commercial operations have employees gingerly
>poking apples into the grinder with sticks. One thing I've considered
>is setting the plates to a more open position, so that all apples would
>go through without jamming, and then dumping the pomace back through
>the grinder, hoping that on this second pass the larger chunks would
>get ground up.
> Does anyone have any suggestions as to how to resolve this dilemma?
>Is this a common problem?
================
Terence Bradshaw
Calais, VT
1450 feet, zone 4
http://www.lostmeadowvt.com
Juice still available for the 2006 cider squeeze...
http://www.lostmeadowvt.com/juice/06squeezings.htm
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Natural vs Whites Yeast and sweetness
From: Terry Bradshaw <terryb@lostmeadowvt.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:16:25 -0400
>One of our most interesting findings is that the batch of cider we make all
>naturally is usually the best. We don't use campden tablets we don't add any
>yeast we just get the juice from the local orchard then put it in a car boy
>and let it do its thang. Two years in a row it has turned out great.
I have had the same experience. This assumes clean equipment where
there aren't a lot of spoilage bacteria present.
>Just as back ground.
>We use natural unpaturized apple juice from a local orchard ( San Luis
>Obispo California).
>We have used natural yeast, and white yeasts- champagne, mead, cider, white
>wine. There are minor and subtle differences. The cider turns our very dry
>with a ABV of about 14%.
You must add a lot of sugar to reach that level, which is a good bit
high IMO.
>This year we are priming with malt sugar. How much do you think we should
>use in 5 gallons?
No experience with cider, but beer guys would use 2/3 cup per 5 gallons.
>I wish there was some easy way to add some sweetness to some of the cider.
>We were thinking that if we used a beer yeast the cider would attenuate
>earlier and leave some residual sugar. Alcohol would be lower but more
>residual sugar would be left. We are going to experiment with this next year
>but if someone out there already knows what will happen I would love to hear
>about it. My thinking is that beer has a lower attenuation. I hope I am
>using that word correctly.
The lower attenuation in beer has more to do with presence of
unfermentable sugars in the wort. My experience has been that yeast,
especially commercial ones, will gobble up every drop of apple sugar in
solution. To leave some sweetness you can try a number of techniques
including keeving, multiple rackings, filtering, fermenting to dryness
and stabilizing (SO2, sorbate) before back sweetening, etc. Details here:
http://www.lostmeadowvt.com/cider/other.htm
TB
>Pax Vobiscum,
>David
================
Terence Bradshaw
Calais, VT
1450 feet, zone 4
http://www.lostmeadowvt.com
Juice still available for the 2006 cider squeeze...
http://www.lostmeadowvt.com/juice/06squeezings.htm
------------------------------
Subject: Quebec visit
From: Bradley and Caitlin Hunter <hunter@midcoast.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 17:50:45 -0400
I will be driving up to Quebec city for four days starting friday
Oct.6., leaving from midcoast Maine.
Does anyone have some recommendations of cider producers to visit
along the way and get a brief tour and purchase some local product?
What ciders (and/or Perry) should be a 'must buy'?
It's cider time here in Maine and I assume it should be cider
pressing time in Quebec, too. Is that correct or am I early?
I'm cutting this request pretty close so I hope it makes it out to
the subscribers in time. Please respond off post to speed things
along.
Thanks very much,
Brad
*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--*--
Bradley Hunter
Gambell and Hunter Sailmakers -- www.gambellandhunter.com
Caitlin Hunter
Appleton Creamery goat cheese -- www.appletoncreamery.com
780 Gurney Town Road
Appleton, Maine 04862
cheese order hot line 207-785-4431 -- sail loft 207-785-4430
------------------------------
Subject: Re: varieties of trees for cider
From: Hendrixfarms@aol.com
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 20:15:57 EDT
Is there anyone in Oklahoma, or nearby states, that is growing cider variety
apple trees? This is our second year making cider from regular varieties,
Fuji, Gala, etc. We are interested in planting other varieties but don't know
what ones will do well here.
Thanks,
Jack Hendrix
Hendrix Farms
Wellston OK
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Natural vs Whites Yeast and sweetness
From: Roy Bailey <sales@lambournvalleycider.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 18:19:56 +0100
In message , David Blakely <slodave69@hotmail.com> writes
>This is our second year of making "hard" apple cider. We have been doing a
>lot experimentation and learning a lot from this list.
>
[snipped]
>Just as back ground.
>We use natural unpaturized apple juice from a local orchard ( San Luis
>Obispo California).
>We have used natural yeast, and white yeasts- champagne, mead, cider, white
>wine. There are minor and subtle differences. The cider turns our very dry
>with a ABV of about 14%.
Really? I find it difficult to believe that a natural fermentation of
apple juice without the addition of lots of sugar would produce an ABV
of 14%. Are you sure that your measuring equipment is accurate? If it
is, then the orchard at San Luis Obispo has the finest apples for sugar
content in the world. Send me some cuttings!
>This year we are priming with malt sugar. How much do you think we should
>use in 5 gallons?
I would recommend priming with plain sugar, not malt. About a level
teaspoonful per gallon should be plenty.
>I wish there was some easy way to add some sweetness to some of the cider.
>We were thinking that if we used a beer yeast the cider would attenuate
>earlier and leave some residual sugar. Alcohol would be lower but more
>residual sugar would be left. We are going to experiment with this next year
>but if someone out there already knows what will happen I would love to hear
>about it. My thinking is that beer has a lower attenuation. I hope I am
>using that word correctly.
I wouldn't recommend messing about with beer yeast; the natural yeast
that you are using is the best. Beer and cider are very different
animals; the latter has more in common with wine. Incidentally, as an
experiment I once brewed some beer with cider yeast. It was absolutely
horrible; harsh, astringent, bone dry and one of the nastiest things I
have ever tasted.
There are ways of checking the fermentation in cider before it finishes
to leave residual sweetness. They do this in Normandy. Details of this
process are on my website at
<www.lambournvalleycider.co.uk/ferment.htm>, but Andrew Lea has a more
professional Powerpoint program about it.
Roy.
- --
Roy Bailey - Proprietor
The Lambourn Valley Cider Company
(Real cider from the Royal County)
<www.lambournvalleycider.co.uk>
------------------------------
Subject: cider-touring England - some other resources
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 23:49:20 -0600
This note covers sources for information or products other than the actual
producers I mentioned in previous notes.
Vigo Ltd, Dunkeswell Airfield, nr Honiton, Devon. Vigo supplies equipment
and supplies for "drink producers" and they are particularly suited to
supplying cidermakers. Well worth a visit. Phone ahead. They have a
showroom for their equipment...I thought Gary's camera was going to melt
down from all the pictures he took of equipment he'd like and/or ideas
on how equipment could work. They've also got a fair collection of books
for sale, some of which are otherwise hard to find. Vigo has a good rep--
I've heard people grump a bit about their prices on some items, but I've
heard only good about quality and service. Alex Hill (a principal in Vigo,
or perhaps -the- principal?, follows this list and posts occasionally).
The ukcider wiki: There is a mailing list for cider in the UK--you might
say somewhat analogous to a UK version of this list, except that ukcider
isn't "digested". (Postings appear on the spot, one by one.) Associated
with the mailing list is a set of web pages, including a wiki with vast
information about (among other things) cider producers and outlets. If
you're going to be traveling in a particular part of the UK, it's a good
choice to pull off the information on the counties you'll visit; either
have it with you on a computer or just print it out.
Hop Pocket Wine Co, Bishops Frome, Herefordshire. This is a curious bottle
shop inside a craft center with various other shops. They have a wide
selection of ciders and perries, most from good small-scale producers.
This would be a good stop mid-way through a vacation, when you realize
that you can't visit every producer but you want to find the products.
[Folks who have visited the UK in the past might wonder why I'm not
mentioning Orchard, Hive and Vine, since they have had a better selection,
indeed marvelous, plus that Geoff and Sue are wonderful people for a chat
about cider and perry. Unfortunately, they had to close their storefront
operation due to the economic realities; they only work via their web site
and as suppliers. And no, they can't ship to the US via web site order.]
The Museum of Cider, Hereford. (Assume hideous traffic in Hereford.)
The museum has an interesting collection of old cider equipment and
artifacts, plus a walking tour through some cellars. They also have
a corner of otherwise-hard-to-find books for sale. (Where would you go
to find a Bulmer's Pomona?) I've seen the exhibits before but I wanted
to go back on our most recent visit mainly to check out the books and
buy a few. One catch: They don't take credit cards, and I expect that
traveler's cheques wouldn't work (they don't work in most places), so
you need enough cash for your book purchases, some of which might be a
tad spendy. Still, if you can't find the book anywhere else...
I should mention the Good Cider Guide, although frankly I'd rather not.
This is a publication of CAMRA (the CAMpaign for Real Ale) that purports to
be a guide to cider producers and outlets. The fortunes of this book have
been up and down over the years. The previous year-2000 version by Dave
Matthews was great, but by now it's too dated and also unavailable. After
five years of conflict and many rumors of internal politics, we have the
2005 edition--supposedly by Ted Bruning but you'd be hard-pressed to verify
that--which omits almost as much as it covers, and isn't all that accurate
in what it -does- cover. If you can get a copy of this book, you'll likely
find it somewhat helpful in finding cider, as long as you keep two things
in mind: (1) Ask/call/email to verify anyplace you intend to visit, and
don't put any faith in their maps. (2) Don't assume that it's complete.
Ask around once you get to your destination. The GCG is a book of hints,
no more.
There's a source of large numbers of ciders and perries, which
unfortunately we didn't manage to visit because it's so out-of-the-way.
It's Middle Farm, in East Sussex (Google is your friend). I've heard
good things about them, but they are just so far from any cider-producing
area that we couldn't justify a trip. If anyone from "over here" visits
the UK and makes it to Middle Farm, -please- give us a report!
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: UK Perry Fest.
From: "chris horn" <agent_strangelove@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 10:37:07 -0700
This past weekend was the Perry Pear Presidium at the Three Counties Autumn
Show in Malvern Worcestershire, UK.
As an American headed over I wasn't sure what to expect? But I had been
asked to put together a brief display of what is going on with perry pears
in the states (see below for the text of my poster that I put together for
this and a link for captioned photos).
The best way to describe is that the show grounds at Malvern were basically
having a sort of large state fair. There was livestock, vegetable displays
antique cars, rides games and people selling everything from pianos to bad
kitchen implements. But also on the show grounds property is the national
collection of perry pears.
But the best part of it was the three counties and Welsh marches perry
gathering. There were a number of perry and hard cider producers that were
selling and displaying their wonderful work. And NOT being the states, you
could taste samples and walk about with glasses of cider and perry enjoying
as you went? Bottles were also for sale to take home or open there and
stroll about?.
Peter Mitchell (cider consultant and of cider class fame) did three tutored
tastings of perry. I think that he covered 11 perrys during the three
different tastings. The number of people at each tasting ranged from about
30 ? 50. I don't know if he has figured out who won the people choice award
yet.
Tom Oliver (Oliver's Cider and Perry) had a stand and was selling a number
of his wonderful perrys as well as having draught perry available by the
glass. His Blakney Red varietal was wonderful and some of it made it all
the way back to the states with me. Gwatkin's Cider and Perry was present
had a booth that was going a good business. They had a med-dry Oldfield
Perry that was very good as well. Natterjack (a producer from Somerset) had
a booth and was selling a classic Somerset cider. Weston's had a booth
selling there drinks. A local specialty bottle shop (Orchard, Hive and Vine,
in Leominster, Herefordshire) was also there with a number of other perrys
whose producers couldn't make it?
Jim Chapman managed to organize a huge display of perry pear varieties.
There were 66 identified varieties present by the end of the weekend. It
was estimated that this was the largest gathering of perry pear varieties
since before WWII at Long Ashton. It was amazing to see them all clearly
labeled. Jim and Tom also worked on about 10 different samples that folks
had brought in to be identified.
There were two organized walks in the national collection orchard. On
Saturday afternoon Chris Fairs (Grower's Advisory Manager for Bulmer's and
one of the guru's in their orchard department) spend about an hour with 10
of us walking about talking about perry pears from nursery man's point of
view. His knowledge was amazing. Sunday afternoon, Charles Martell (of
Stinking Bishop cheese fame, and one of the guys that started the national
collection) took about 12 of us about the orchard for a talk on the origins
of the collection. He had dozens of stories to go with trees and varieties
that we present. Also on this walk was Jim Arbury of the Royal Hort.
Society. In addition to writing a book on pears (in addition to other fruit
books), he works with the RHS collection of apples. His knowledge also
contributed to his tour.
Jonathan Latimer is a local artist that does amazing art work. He has
started to do a number of botanical prints of cider apples and perry pears.
Over the course of the weekend he did several original prints of perry
pears. He has also recently completed a poster of cider apples (see my
photos) and will be selling it shortly. His web page can be found at:
http://www.jonathanlatimer.com
All and all it was an amazing weekend. The knowledge, experience, pears and
products gathered was amazing. I think that they are going to try this
again next year. I strongly recommend making it to this show if you have a
chance.
Captioned photos can be found at:
http://www1.snapfish.com/thumbnailshare/AlbumID=56117630/a=15909148_15909148/t_=
15909148
Thank you to the folks on each side of the pond that helped me?
Chris Horn
Scappoose Oregon USA
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perry Pears in the United States
The formal history of the perry pears in the United States is relatively
short. Undoubtly there were perry pear starts (cuttings) brought to the new
world by individuals since colonial times but those trees have been lost to
the sands of time. The small, hard and tannic pears were very different
than the fresh eating pears most people would expect from a stately old pear
tree. As a consequence, surely older perry pear trees were eliminated by
unknowing parties.
In the early 1970's, Dr. Porter Lombard, a dessert pear researcher from
Oregon State University, was doing research at the University of Bristol's
research center at Long Ashton and came into contact with perry pears. He
viewed perry pears as a possible product that could have economic value in
the already established dessert pear growing regions he normally worked in.
Long Ashton had a collection of different varieties of perry pears from
different regions of England. Dr. Lombard was able to acquire cuttings
(scion wood) from 10 different pears that Long Ashton had been able to treat
and remove all plant viruses and diseases. Dr. Lombard was then able to
return to his pear research plots near Medford, Oregon and start trees off
of these cuttings. Dr. Lombard tried for a number of years to interest
local pear farmers in planting perry pears without success.
With the economic recession in the early 1980's, pear collections and
horticultural species gardens in general were being destroyed (intentionally
or due to neglect) around the United States due to lack of funds. With the
help of Oregon State University, the United States Department of Agriculture
set up a germplasm repository for pears (among a wide variety of other food
crops) near Corvallis, Oregon. This was to be a collection of all known
pear varieties in the country. The different pear varieties were to be kept
in a tree form with cuttings and seeds to be distributed freely. The free
distribution of genetic material was to aide research and insure survival of
a wide selection of varieties (cultivars). Thus the collection was to
include trees with a huge range of characteristics, not all of them
necessary fruit related or even fruit bearing. Rootstocks were also to be
acquired and cataloged. The first pear trees in the collection were grafted
and planted in the spring of 1981. This initial planting was composed of
cultivars from Oregon States University's collections, the University of
West Virginia's collections and some US Government holdings from their
laboratory in Beltsville, Maryland. Dr. Lombard's trees near Medford gave
cuttings for this newer orchard, 200 miles north. As time went by, the
collection of pears in the repository grew to over 1800 unique accessions of
which over 900 produce edible fruit, the rest being rootstocks or wild pear
species.
There was little to no interest in the perry pears in the collection.
Several other varieties of perry pears joined the collection, some others
from England and some from central Europe. However, the number of true
perry pear varieties has never exceeded eighteen.
Since the founding of the United States, people have always made do with
what was available. Many people over the years have made ?pear cider' from
available dessert pears (Bartlett, Bosc, Comice, etc.). Most producers used
what was available locally. Due to United States alcohol laws (varying state
to state) many of these were sold as pear wines. Some of these products
relied on pear juice alone, and other were mixed with apple juice, crab
apple juice (for tannins) or even fortified with sugar for higher alcohol
content. These products varied greatly in quality and to this day there is
a range of fermented pear products that tend to have local distribution at
best, with many products only being sold at the winery or cider company
producing them.
In the early 1990's there started to be a revival of craft food products.
People began to seek out quality products that were not being mass produced.
Cider was a traditional product that started to make a come back, albeit
very slowly in the United States. Over the next fifteen years, a number of
cider producers came and went as the demand for quality craft cider was not
yet at a level to support producers. There is yet to be a national
distributed craft cider. Many of the people who first became interested in
quality cider also found they had an interest in English style perry. At
least one producer, Alan Foster of White Oak Cider near Newberg, Oregon, put
in a small group of perry pears after tasting true English perry while
attending commercial cider making classes in England. Thus over the last
few years more and more people have become interested in planting perry
pears.
There is also a great interest in the multitude of varies of perry pears
that the English perry makers have access to. The different regions of the
United States have different climates and surely different varieties would
produce better results in different places. Currently, the largest supplier
of young perry pears in the United States is Cummins Nursery in Geneva, New
York. But even they are only selling 200- 300 semi-dwarf trees a year for
the last several years. They hope to ramp up their sales of these trees as
the demand is slowly expanding. Most aspiring perry pear orchard owners
(both hobbyists and commercial producers) resort to grafting their own
trees. But even with modern grafting techniques and dwarfing rootstock, it
would be many years until the trees bore enough fruit to produce perry in
any real quantity. Most people planting trees have gone to modern
rootstocks that reduce the time from grafting to fruit bearing from
twenty-five years down to as little as five to seven years. This also
yields a smaller more easily managed tree, most being about twenty feet tall
when mature, not the forty to sixty foot trees that dot the landscape of the
three counties region. Some pear plantings are going to the extreme and
using dwarfing rootstocks that produce trees less than ten feet tall and are
grown in a bush orchard type of fashion with support wire trellises.
But import of plant material is very restricted in the United States. The
United States Government is worried about introduction of invasive diseases
and thus highly restricts international plant material shipments. A few of
the more ambitious American perry enthusiasts have managed to get cuttings
(scion wood) into the government system for eventual release to the public.
But this is a very limited process and can be very long. They are held in
quarantine until they can be determined to be free of a number of plant
diseases. Most perry pear cuttings are heavily saturated with plant virus
that the trees have developed immunity to over thousands of years. Thus the
pears in question may be healthy but could spread disease to other varieties
of pears. Typically, the submitted cuttings are treated and grafted at the
government's laboratory in Beltsville, Maryland. The resulting trees are
studied for several years and the process is repeated as needed until they
can be deemed disease free. Thus it could be only a few years to get a new
variety of pear into the United States but eight to ten years is what one
pear grower is expecting to wait for his perry pear scion wood. There are
currently approximately fourteen perry pear (among 120+) varieties waiting
to be deemed safe and released for propagation, in the government's system.
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1341
*************************
