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Cider Digest #1310
Subject: Cider Digest #1310, 24 March 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1310 24 March 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
More competition talk (Terry Bradshaw)
Re: Planting trees for lower maintenance (Terry Bradshaw)
Re: Cider Competitions (Kevin Pratt)
Re: Cider Digest #1309, 22 March 2006 (Michael Faul)
Re: Classes for new cider makers? ("John C. Campbell III")
Hereford Cider Competition, UK (Andrew Lea)
seeking apple trees (cider varieties) ("Jarrod B")
belt presses vs others (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: More competition talk
From: Terry Bradshaw <terryb@lostmeadowvt.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 19:46:59 -0500
Some folks here know that last year I had a good competition season, but
I have had bad ones before, especially before the new style guidelines
(thanks to Dick, Gary, Drew, and all at BJCP!) Some thoughts:
>Mike Beck: I have nothing against BJCP and I appreciate
>their efforts. Commercial cider producers are required to get federal wine
>licensing. When we associate with beer it causes marketplace confusion. I
>wish that there was a sister organization called the CJCP or something.
>
I agree it's confusing, but in reality the beer guys are better at this
than the wine folks, in my opinion. And us cider folks don't yet have a
large enough following/clout/marketing arm to set up a CJCP or such
organization. The way I see it, we are working within the BJCP ranks
until cider gets a larger acceptance and can go it alone, as far as
consistent national competition guidelines are concerned.
>Ben Watson: My only problem was with the "enforcement" of the submissions by
>category, and here Bulmer was the prime example of what went wrong. I
>believe that both Strongbow and Woodpecker were entered in the English
>cider category -- though, as I stated before (and stealing from Mark
>Twain) they are no more like real English cider than I am like a
>meridian of longitude.
>
Couldn't agree more. I don't know how they enforce the guidelines for
beer, but this whole Bulmer's thing at GLOWS really smeared things a
bit. Maybe some sort of affidavit system should be put in place, where
the entrant agrees that their cider is being entered in the best
possible category and would be due for disqualification if it turns out
to blatantly not fit the guidelines. Obviously there needs to be some
discretion involved, but the Woodpecker = English cider thing was a
clear example of the cider not even coming close to the style guidelines.
>Gary Awdey: Interestingly, most of the criticism I've heard of
>the guidelines themselves so far has come from experienced competition
>organizers who find it troubling that there are now style subcategories for
>which it is difficult to get commercial examples. While I'll agree that
>this is a problem, a review of some of the competition award winners in
>North America in the past year shows that there have been a significant and
>growing number of entries in the newly recognized styles. Expansion of the
>number of cider styles in the guidelines over time follows the example of
>the expansion of the number of beer styles. If further interest among
>cidermakers is sparked by these evolving guidelines then they will have
>served at least one of their intended purposes well. However, there seem to
>be practical limits on how quickly these guidelines may be expanded due to
>limits on how quickly they may be widely assimilated and understood.
>
Think of homebrewing and commercial craft brews 25 years ago. You
couldn't find commercial examples of many styles at that time, and it
was the homebrewers who made them, shared them, and generated enough
interest to make a market for the breweries to pick it up. That's my
analogous to what should happen with the cider competitions. As great,
home-crafted ciders get out there and get noticed, commercial operations
should take notice and fill in the gaps.
>Some competitions are slow to recognize more than two levels of carbonation.
>Only specification of either "still" or "carbonated" was required under
>the previous version of the cider style guidelines. Classification of
>degree of carbonation was left as an option. Several competition entry
>forms in the past year or so have failed to recognize the intermediate
>classification of "petillant" even while recognizing all other aspects of
>the current cider style guideline revision. While this generally seems to
>be an oversight, apparently some few feel that the recognition of
>"petillant" is an unnecessary annoyance. Cidermakers who have had
>petillant cider marked down in competition for not being still or not being
>highly carbonated probably do not share this opinion.
>
Yeah, I've been burned there before. Many of my ciders are bottled at
1.5-2.5 atm or so, even in regular corked bottles. I call them
'petilant' on the label under 'level of carbonation'. For the same
cider I had one judge tell me it was 'still' and another say it was
'sparkling'. I don't know how to solve this other than to have a
specific 'petilant' category.
>Ben Watson:
>I guess this is a plea to look beyond our own prejudices (and we all
>have 'em) and our narrow interests and join together to help re-create
>an American and international cider culture. It seems to me that's the
>common denominator for all of us, whether amateur or professional.
>
Well said.
TB
================
Terence Bradshaw
Calais, VT
terryb@lostmeadowvt.com
http://www.lostmeadowvt.com
http://lostmeadowvt.blogspot.com
1450 feet, zone 4A/B?
The views represented are mine and mine only........
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Planting trees for lower maintenance
From: Terry Bradshaw <terryb@lostmeadowvt.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 19:46:56 -0500
>Subject: Planting trees for lower maintenance
>From: "Varilyn Schock" <vschock@qwest.net>
>
>Greetings Everyone,
>
>Thank you for your previous observations. I have a new area cleared for
>more trees and wonder if anyone's experimented with what grows under
>their tree limbs? Has anyone planted a particular kind of grass or
>other plant, or has another approach for around their new trees to keep
>the weeds down, requires less maintenance than mowing weeds, and is good
>for/reserves most of the moisture for the trees? I know that I'm
>hopeful, but it's worth asking!
>
>Varilyn Schock
>
I'd recommend a permanent groundcover of creeping fescue/perennial
ryegrass/ bluegrass, roughly 1:1:1, at least that works in my area
(northern New England). Seed it down in the row middles at
establishment. BUT, in the trees' early years keep all grass/weed
competition down by mulching and/or herbicide. After year four or so
you can let grass grow in closer but keep it well mowed and keep an eye
on shoot growth to guage nitrogen or water stress: you should get 18
inches of terminal growth per year, give or take.
I use a stone mulch about 1' wide at the base of my trees and glyphosate
in a 2' strip down the row. My orchard is about to head into third leaf
and is doing great. I also have a drip irrigation system which allows me
to inject fertilizer into the water. It's a lot simpler and cheaper
than it sounds.
That works for me,
TB
================
Terence Bradshaw
Calais, VT
terryb@lostmeadowvt.com
http://www.lostmeadowvt.com
http://lostmeadowvt.blogspot.com
1450 feet, zone 4A/B?
The views represented are mine and mine only........
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Competitions
From: Kevin Pratt <oh2bontv@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 18:03:07 -0800 (PST)
As far as the BJCP goes:
> <soapbox/>
> >
> > I think that what we (as a community) would like to see are
> > _cider_ competitions that respect and reward the complexity and
> > diversity of our products in a way that we, as a community, have built
<snip>
> >...If we could come up
> > with a set of guidelines, I would hope that we could go to
> organizations
> > like the BCJP and the various wine competitions and say 'This is how
> we think our products are best considered. Please respect our
> >industries
There is a major distinction within judging between amateur and commercial
competitions. Commercial competitions do not require the same evaluation
and feedback in writing as amateur competitions (but I personally wish
they did).
> > An observation from the polls I have running on the Cider Net
> > site - we seem to prefer (unamimously so far) Gold/Silver/Bronze
> > multiple-awards (like wine comps) over 1st/2nd/3rd single-awards (like
> > beer comps). This may be a more fundamental conflict than defining
> > sytles or setting productions rules for certain categories.
>
The format is totally up to the organizer, NOT the BJCP. If the Campbell
or even the Dutch method were to be used, the organizer would have to
educate the judges about the format. The best competitions always have a
judge meeting to discuss the organizers format and needs. Many judges are
avid wine, cider and mead makers as well as beer, so this should be just a
matter of simple instructions. Those that are not makers of these and are
comfortable judging mead/cider, are typically aquainted with both the
Campbell and the Dutch methods of judging.
However, one should consider that the entry fees are typically modest for
beer/mead/cider competitions compared to commercial wine. As such, there
is not the available funds to both handle the competition overhead AND the
innumerable awards needed for these wine-based methods of awards.
There are BJCP plans to create better Cider and Mead judges. The planned
formation of these committees has already been announced.
That all said, please consider that the guidelines (even for beer) are not
comprehensive of everything made. Nor are they meant for deliniation of
every 'proper' style. The are simply a target for competition. As such,
they represent a common language for both the cidermaker and the judge to
frame an evaluation.
What that does is allow for a comparison to the target for flavor, aroma
and that elusive quality of balance. Every cider maker and every judge
have tastebuds. Like it or not, the feedback given is what the judges
tasted that day. The latter is particularly important to commercial
makers because it represents what might be perceived by consumers (hence
my desire to write evaluations).
Cider and mead are NOT the ugly step-children of the BJCP. Many judges
refrain from judging these because they do not feel they understand it
enough to provide quality feedback. This is quite the opposite of the
"whatever as long as it has alcohol" perception that some mead/cidermakers
have about beer judges.
After all, as competitor or judge; we do this as a hobby, to gain more
insight and to become better producers of quality beverages.
Kevin Pratt
Sacramento
BJCP National Judge
My opinions are my own
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1309, 22 March 2006
From: Michael Faul <mfaul@rabbitsfootmeadery.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:35:27 -0800
> Subject: Re: cider competitions
> From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 15:04:12 -0500
>
>
> My only problem was with the "enforcement" of the submissions by
> category, and here Bulmer was the prime example of what went wrong. I
> believe that both Strongbow and Woodpecker were entered in the English
> cider category -- though, as I stated before (and stealing from Mark
> Twain) they are no more like real English cider than I am like a
> meridian of longitude.
What is an 'English Cider'? Is there a defined formula or character?
Sweet, dry, so much sugar, sparkling or still? So much acid? Certain
types of apples?
I make ciders and cysers of various types and I wouldn't have a clue
what catagory to put them in.
Mike
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Classes for new cider makers?
From: "John C. Campbell III" <jccampb@tseassoc.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 07:06:01 -0500
> In CD#1308 Patrick J. Farrell wrote:
>
> > I had heard that the Universities of Cornell and Washington State were going
> > to hold classes for us new hard cider makers? Any news on that? Also do we
> > have a list of competitions for hard cider?
Gary's right Patrick, there certianly are several scattered around the
east coast. In the fall we have a seminar hosted by Vintage Virgina
Apples, (the announcement will show up here when it's scheduled
http://vintagevirginiaapples.com/
that is attended by a variety of cider makers. This last fall, Chas
McGonegal gave a presentation, as did Tom Burford who has been
responsible for re-discovering some of our country's lost cider apple
strains. We're hoping that this fall Dr. Chris White of White Labs will
be presenting (along with whatever other presentations Chuck and
Charlotte Shelton have cooked up for us). jccampb
------------------------------
Subject: Hereford Cider Competition, UK
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 13:59:35 +0000
FYI. Might be of interest, although arguably not up to the standard of
your US competitions - no style guides, points marking schemes or
anything like that!! Just quaff-and-judge in the good old British
manner! Intending entrants should e-mail Sally Lane for details.
Intenational entries are accepted.
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
- -------- Original Message --------
Subject: International Cider & Perry Competition 2006
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 14:25:10 -0000
From: T & S Lane <lane-spond@tiscali.co.uk>
We are in the process of organising this years International Cider and
Perry Competition at the Hereford Cider Museum, UK, taking place on
Wednesday 17th May. If you would be interested in receiving a copy of
the form and conditions please let me know by email and I shall forward
this on to you.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Regards.
Sally Lane
------------------------------
Subject: seeking apple trees (cider varieties)
From: "Jarrod B" <jarrod@inorbit.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2006 18:04:51 -0700
Hello everyone,
I must say I have been enjoying the articles on this journal for the last
few years. I have recently purchased several acres of land with pasture
near Nelson BC, Canada, and am inspired to start planting an orchard with
cider specific apple varieties.
Is there anyone nearby, or in the Okanagan, or near Vancouver BC who is
selling cider specific apple trees. I am travelling over the next couple of
weeks to the west coast and would love to get a hold of some.
FYI: Nelson BC is located approximately 100 km north of Spokane Washington.
cheers,
Jarrod Brown
Nelson BC
jarrod@inorbit.com
------------------------------
Subject: belt presses vs others
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2006 00:39:24 -0700
"Mike Beck" <mjbeck@ujcidermill.com> wrote about presses:
[stuff about bladder presses deleted]
> ...We switched to a medium sized belt press after 20 years of a standard
> rack and cloth. The entire unit sits on space less that a sheet plywood.
> It will crank out up to 450+/- gal. hour and it requires zero personal
> to operate. Needs only a feed man to bring fruit into the plant and
> remove pomace from the plant...
Please tell us who makes the press you've got!
I've seen belt presses in the UK and I was really impressed (sic). There's
a setup that's literally dump fruit in one end and take juice and marc out
the other. Plus as you said it's continuous, no batch steps.
But the ones we saw in the UK were Austrian (Voran), and I wonder if
someone has cleared the hurdles of getting them into the US and getting
them to work on our power, or, if there are more manufacturers of the
continuous belt presses.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1310
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