Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Cider Digest #1317
Subject: Cider Digest #1317, 27 April 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1317 27 April 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Newbie seeks Advise for Applejack (casey jennings)
Re: Cider Digest #1316, 22 April 2006 (Ian Merwin)
RE: Newbie seeks Advise for Applejack ("McGonegal, Charles")
Re: Suckering on certain varieties (Bill)
Re: Cider Digest #1316, 22 April 2006 (Osew@aol.com)
Re: Cider Digest #1316, 'scion specific suckering (Stephen Wood)
more about gelatin (for fining) (Dick Dunn)
Re: scion-specific suckering?!? (Dick Dunn)
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the
message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them.
Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Newbie seeks Advise for Applejack
From: casey jennings <rcjennings@earthlink.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2006 15:33:12 -0400
Newbie: I applaud your spirit but you should remember that even though
you are not heating your cider you are still producing "distilled
spirits" within the meaning of 27 CFR Section 1 subpart C, which is
prohibited unless you have a permit... but of course you knew that.
Anon
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1316, 22 April 2006
From: Ian Merwin <im13@cornell.edu>
Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2006 20:44:07 -0400
Regarding Dick Dunn's question about suckering and scion varieties:
M.7 tends to produce a lot of suckers on most apple varieties. With
time, you will probably see them on all the other varieties as well
as Major and HM Jersey. The depth of planting also has an effect
(deeper roots tend to produce fewer suckers, so it could be related
to the length of the rootstock shanks (shorter) when you grafted
those two scion varieties, or perhaps you planted them with the
budunion higher above the ground than the others. Most commercial
growers have quit planting trees on M.7 because it is such a hassle
cutting out those suckers every summer. For a similar sized tree
with few suckers, that also brings the scion into production several
years sooner than M.7, you might want to consider G.30 or MM.106
rootstocks instead. Many of the cider orchards in Western Europe are
planted on MM.106, and it seems to work very will with those
varieties on well drained soils with relatively long growing seasons
(maritime climates).
- --
***********************
Ian & Jackie Merwin
Black Diamond Farm
25 Washington St.
Trumansburg, NY, USA, 14886
Telephone: 607-387-5312
Webpage: www.incredapple.com
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Newbie seeks Advise for Applejack
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 07:17:44 -0500
Tim,
I'm sure you've gotten a few comments from your Cider Digest post, but
I'll put in my two-bits.
Your process outline is basically correct, though it glosses over many
fine details.
BUT...,
1) Cultivar selection. The more, the merrier. Use LOTS of varieties.
And picking sweet varieties will NOT yield a sweeter [fermented] cider.
Simple fact of cider - the yeast eat all the sugar and leave it dry.
There are, of course, exceptions - see the fine details.
2) Applejack is not exactly healthful, nor is it legal. Fractional
crystalization concentrates all non-water components in cider, including
natural, but unhealthy, chemicals. This differs from distilling (also
illegal to do at home) that concentrates all the components near the
boiling point of alcohol. The practical upshot is that a lot of calvados
(cider brandy) will get you hung-over, but a lot of applejack will
literally give you palsy.
If you're really looking to make something sweet and more alcoholic than
simple [hard] cider, try pommeau. Pommeau is a blend of the fresh juice
(or sweet cider) and cider brandy. Aim for 18-20% alcohol after
blending, and let it sit a couple of months in a carboy with an airlock
(like normal wine/cider) before you bottle it.
Best of luck with custom pressing. Getting unpasteurized cider is
trickier than it used to be, and custom pressing, as you describe, is
illegal in most states (again with the fine print thing). Ohio is not
one of the liberal states when it comes to this. Some pressers are
moving to UV treatment, which is at least non-thermal - and cheaper than
running the cider through a water-jet steel cutter at 80,000psi, which
is another non-thermal '5-log kill' anti-microbial process.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Suckering on certain varieties
From: Bill <squeeze@mars.ark.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 10:39:36 -0700
My take on Dick's situation ["(a) I didn't see this sort of suckering on
ANYthing other than Major and HMJ, but (b) I didn't see it on absolutely
every instance of those two."]
different rootstocks are more prone to root suckering [EMLA-7 is noted
for it, deeper planting usually lessens the suckering tendencies], and
if the grafted variety is much less vigorous than the root stock, root
suckering is more likely - the fact that some of the noted varieties
didn't sucker might indicate exceptional vigor for those particular
trees, or it may indicate the trees that are suckering, have suffered
some set back, like winter kill, or those particular trees didn't get
planted as deep as the others!
also, you may want to evaluate your soil there, or fertilizers you've
used may be too high in N, forcing more foliage growth than the
varieties can produce, or in P and K which encourage root growth
Bill <http://mars.ark.com/~squeeze>
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1316, 22 April 2006
From: Osew@aol.com
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 14:16:58 EDT
I didn't interpret Dick's BUZZ comment to Kevin Pratt as vitriolic or an
attack or berating or a vent or a dare.
Wendell Ose
BJCP Certified
Home Brewer
Home Winemaker
Home Cidermaker
Home Meadmaker
Home Osapien
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1316, 'scion specific suckering
From: Stephen Wood <swood@farnumhillciders.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2006 15:06:16 -0700
An apple tree will sucker according to its own perceived need, and its
own predilections. M7 suckers by nature, but any root will sucker if
the scion doesn't please it, or if the graft union is insufficient (by
the root's judgment). This often has to do with the cultivars
(rootstock and top), but it sometimes has to do with sharpness of knife
and skill.
Major is mighty vigorous -- I wonder whether you have a graft-union
problem? In any event, M7 and EMLA7 love to throw root suckers. I've
never had Major on 7, but I've topworked it (to other varieties, and to
the rootstck itself) on 106, 111, and 104 (blast from the distant
past) -- always compatible, always vigorous, never root/base suckers.
I've also planted Major on 111 -- wicked vigorous; no suckers. HMJ
isn't quite so mighty in New Hampshire, but once it starts, it rocks.
I've topworked it to an unknown (recommended but useless) cider variety
on both 106 and 111, and to a 30-year-old Mac tree on M106 , and I've
planted a few hundred trees on 111. Not particularly precocious,
upright habit with clear apical dominance, but no suckers.
Sorry, this probably ain't much help.
Steve Wood.
On Apr 22, 2006, at 9:17 AM, cider-request@talisman.com wrote:
------------------------------
Subject: more about gelatin (for fining)
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:40:49 -0600
Reacting to Andrew's recent article concerning gelatin fining, I noted that
he'd inveighed against "Jello", and wondered if his caution would apply to
simple unflavored gelatin (without flavoring and/or sweetener), such as
what's used for kitchen purposes (mousses, aspics, etc). His reply was:
|No I really do mean what I say. Grocery store gelatin will *not* do.
|There are various reasons for this but it is partly to do with the
|isoelectric point which needs to be high and therefore should be
|prepared by acid hydrolysis (type A). Most food grade gelatins are type
|B (alkaline hydrolysis). Also the Bloom strength (gelling power) needs
|to be low for fining whereas by necessity most grocery gelatins go for a
|high Bloom strength. Gelatin chemistry is hugely complex (I have met up
|with it both for beverage fining and for confectionery work) and I do
|not even pretend to be an expert but I know enough to know that the
|correct grade must be used for winemaking. People like Erbsloeh (and
|thence Vigo as agents) sell the correct grade in Europe. They even sell
|a low Bloom liquid gelatin which is enzymically prepared (not
|hydrolysed) and has no gelling power at all. I don't know what's
|available in the US but surely winemaking suppliers must have the
|correct grade.
After that, I wondered whether gelling power would be a rough indication
(one that could be tested in the kitchen, for example) of whether one has
the right sort of gelatin. Andrew replied:
|Interesting thought. Certainly worth a try and if the gel is weak under
|'standard' kitchen gelling conditions it would imply you've got the
|right stuff for fining. But the converse might not be true. Lack of
|gelling power is not the only criterion - conceivably a gelatin of the
|right iso-electric properties and lack of lower molecular weight
|peptides (I didn't mention that before) might still gel reasonably...
(Part of his point is that if a gelatin is weak in gelling power,
presumably it was prepared for some other purpose. However, a strong-
gelling gelatin could still be suitable for fining.)
I tested a brew-shop gelatin described as "100 bloom type B" for gelling
power and found it to be rather inferior but not useless for gelling
(which, per above, suggests it's intended for some other purpose, to the
point, fining). I'm curious whether other folks have fiddled with gelatin
fining and have discerned any fine points which Andrew's notes have
anticipated.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: scion-specific suckering?!?
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2006 23:48:21 -0600
I got a handful of off-list responses, so I'll plan on a general response
to those plus whatever's on-list, in the next digest. It all covers a
bunch of topics which are interesting if you're making your own trees, but
not necessarily relevant to cider specifically, so I'll try to grind it
down to the basics. Some of the considerations include rootstock tendency
to sucker, graft quality, scion vigor, planting depth...whew!! I am VERY
glad for the resources of this list (even if a bit overwhelmed just at the
moment)!
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1317
*************************
