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Cider Digest #1353
Subject: Cider Digest #1353, 18 November 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1353 18 November 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: fruit flies (Dick Dunn)
RE: winter banana and sweating ("McGonegal, Charles")
pH of juice after pressing ("Charles McGonegal")
Fruit Flies ("Bruce Talbott")
Re: Big Cider - why, what (Dick Dunn)
Hard Cider Session @ Great Lakes Expo ("Mike Beck")
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Subject: Re: fruit flies
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 21:37:56 -0700
Mike Johnson <tomijon@yahoo.com> wrote in CD 1351:
[this year's cidermaking on larger scale]
>...The problem is i have so many fruit flies my wife is ready to evict me
> and my brews. I live in western NC and our autumn highs are around 60 F
> these days. My basement won't get cooler than 45F in mid winter. Is there
> anything i can do to rid my basement of these annoying insects?
How are you fermenting?!? I've had fruit flies around the fruit, and if
I'm not careful, around the pressing. But once everything is in containers
to ferment, it's closed and there's nothing to draw the flies.
Other folks are addressing the trapping problem, but here are a couple
things to consider as preventive for next year.
Store fruit waiting for pressing as far as possible from where you'll
ferment.
Get rid of rotting or questionable fruit as fast as you can. Fruit flies
are drawn to broken fruit -much- faster than to sound fruit.
Similarly, get rid of your pomace as soon as you're done pressing. If
you can't dispose of it, at least move it well away.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: RE: winter banana and sweating
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 07:06:16 -0600
Good morning, Mike.
We (Brightonwoods Orchards, rather) sell Winter Banana as one of our
more popular fresh eating apples. Nice melon/banana aroma in good years
- - rather plain on others. Yellow apple with pretty red cheek. Smoother,
thinner skin than Gold Delicious. Not ribbed/crowned. I don't recall
stem, basin, eye,sepal, leaf, bark, blossom-time or harvest-time details
at the moment.
I only tried sweating it out once, and it didn't work - at least at
basement temps (~60F). I had to press it early - as in November. The
rest of that batch sweated nicely until winter solstice. (Gold Del,
Baldwin and Arkansas Black)
That is assuming that we're talking about the same apple. In one of my
chats with Tom Burford at this past Cider Days, he told a sad story of
strolling with Herb Teichman through his collection down in Berrien
county (SW Michigan) and noting the high rate of mis-identification.
Both of us probably have used the same scion sources he (Herb) did - but
my faith in accurate identification is waning.
Question to the Digest: If you regularly sweat apples, what temp do you
use? I can report that 34F is too cold, and actually backfired on me -
made a less intense cider.
PS: Yes, I'm going to be annoying and drop names of Cider Days
acquaintances and friends - just to 'inspire' folks to think about
attending.
"This discussion may also be of some service to the future of Cider, if
it clears up any confusion which may have existed as to the great
difference between a real sparkling Cider, made by the expensive
processes described, and the muddy imitations which, fizzing in beer
bottles, masquerade to the detriment and prejudice of the genuine
product."
Revival of Cider, HP Bulmer & Co. ca. 1908
Charles McGonegal
President / Cidermaker
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: pH of juice after pressing
From: "Charles McGonegal" <cpm@appletrue.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 07:31:39 -0600 (CST)
I've noticed that the pH of juice right off the press is significantly
lower (.3 to .5) than juice that has stood for a day or two in cold
storage.
I haven't noticed a shift in titratable acidity - just in pH.
Is this a known/common observation?
By the way, as a note on the Capmden tablet discussion. My copy of
Concepts in Wine Chemistry (Marglit) suggests that for 50ppm sulfite to be
effective, you'd need to be below a pH of 3.8. And I believe that's not
counting the sulfite that gets bound to other chemicals in the first
addition. At a TA of 4 g/L, I wonder if a cider's pH is low enough for
50ppm to have the desired effect.
- --
"This discussion may also be of some service to the future of Cider, if
it clears up any confusion which may have existed as to the great
difference between a real sparkling Cider, made by the expensive
processes described, and the muddy imitations which, fizzing in beer
bottles, masquerade to the detriment and prejudice of the genuine
product."
Revival of Cider, HP Bulmer & Co. ca. 1908
Charles McGonegal
President / Cidermaker
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Fruit Flies
From: "Bruce Talbott" <bruce@talbottfarms.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 19:10:53 -0700
I agree with suggestions to date involving baited jars for the suppression
of fruit flies.
We press apple juice, pack peaches and other fruits, do fruit drying, have
some retail space and occasionally produce wine in our facility. We have
used jars for many years but have found that during the main part of the
fruit fly season, the only way we can keep ahead is to pull out the big
guns. We send someone through the facility several times a day with a
propane flamer or weed burner. An airborn fruit fly takes a fraction of a
second to fry and we can quickly bring fruit fly levels down to a token
populations. Besides, it appeals to the "Redneck" side of people who don't
like passive controls. We flame equipment, trash cans, fruit bins
themselves if necessary, primary fermenters and even retail space. The key
of course is to have someone operating the burner that moves quickly and has
a clue.
Good luck and don't burn anything down.
Bruce
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Big Cider - why, what
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 23:43:21 -0700
My first reaction to Bruce Kahn's (dirkblaze@aol.com) "Big Cider" note
was pretty negative. How many other folks felt that way? I had to think
about -why- I had that reaction. Pondering what beer makers do, I've had
all manner of barleywines, doppelbocks, and -ators; even made a few.
They're qualitatively different from session beers, and because of that,
they're not seen as a step up or competitive. That is, I don't react
negatively to the idea of barleywine, because I wouldn't drink it in the
same way I'd drink an ale.
Maybe it's the trend in wines that makes the idea of a "big" cider not so
attractive? Table wines have gone from 11-12% abv a couple decades ago,
to 12-13.5 nowadays for ordinary, and 15-% isn't unusual. The folks who
are serious about "big wines" would take 15% as a starting point. That
is getting out of hand, mainly because these hotter wines aren't considered
as different products but rather as "high end" (in some twisted sense) of
regular table wines. You just can't increase the alcohol content by 25%
and not take some responsibility for it. Also there's a tradition and
understanding that a standard wine bottle (which has only changed by 0.2
US fl oz over many decades) is the sensible amount for two people for an
evening.
So I suppose my first worry about "big cider" is that, in the grand
American tradition of "bigger is better" we'd see ciders or so-called-
ciders going to 10%, 11%, and just competing up the scale. Don't want
that, at least not if they're treated as regular ciders. You ought to
be able to drink a regular cider in more than tiny sips.
Then there's a thought that it's substituting the wrong set of challenges.
A 10% cider is actually a lot easier to make--avoiding technical flaws--
than a 7% cider. The big extra dose of alcohol solves a lot of problems.
Instead, there's the challenge of how to balance the character. (You don't
want to end up with "cask-strength Strongbow"!)
But although the focus in "big" beers and wines generally includes more
alcohol, I'm being unfair to Bruce. He pointed out that there are various
ways you'd make a cider "big", including say a lot of flavor or body. If
the higher flavor involves additives, it seems like going down an off-ramp
to the road for some other beverage. Yes, there's the home "New England
style" cider which adds other fermentables with their flavors (brown sugar,
raisins, also using spirit barrels which aren't quite empty:-) and that's
all very well but is it relevant to those of us who don't need our drinks
to cope with a northeastern winter? And what other flavors/additives
would make a cider "big" but still allow one to call it "cider" with a
clear conscience?
Perhaps consider a different technique such as "ice cider" which has been
discussed a lot here lately.
What about pommeau, which is a blend of apple brandy and fresh juice? It's
a very different approach but it leads to a "big" drink that's interesting.
Which techniques are "fair" and which "cheating"? To a brewer, it all
comes down to the grain bill and it's all one. To a winemaker, it starts
with grapes, and making a "big" wine by chaptalizing or using concentrate
really is a cheat. (They'd rather work with grapes that are so over-ripe
they nearly taste like raisins...oh, there's my attitude showing through
again!)
How much additional apple character could you want? And what part of the
character would you want to emphasize? Sure, you could do a varietal
Foxwhelp for over-the-top acidity, or a varietal Tremlett's Bitter for
hard tannin. Is this a good idea?
This year I froze a bunch of juice awaiting the right use for it, and I
have some surplus. I could probably make up a batch from Dolgo and Nehou
with OG 1070 (potential alcohol 9+%), TA > 1%, tannin > 0.4%. Should I
give it a try with a small batch and show why this isn't a good idea (or
find out that it IS and eat crow)? If nothing else, it could make an
interesting "out in left field" item for next Cider Day.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Hard Cider Session @ Great Lakes Expo
From: "Mike Beck" <mjbeck@ujcidermill.com>
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2006 15:03:36 -0500
On Thursday December 7th at 9:00 am, at the Devos Place Convention Center
in Grand Rapids Michigan.
The Michigan State Horticultural will have a presentation on Hard Cider
Production. This is being held in conjunction with the annual Great Lakes
Fruit, Vegetable and Farm Market Exposition. The "Expo" has a very large
trade show and lots of educational opportunities for the fruit grower. More
info at www.glexpo.com
The Hard Cider Session will feature an update on Michigan State Universities
cider varieties and famed author and Digester, Ben Watson. A presentation
on GLOWS is also included.
If you grow apples, or any other fruit or vegetable this is the show for
you. It is the largest EXPO of its kind this side of the Mississippi.
Please join us for a day if you get the chance.
mike beck
st. johns, MI
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1353
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