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Cider Digest #1345
Subject: Cider Digest #1345, 19 October 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1345 19 October 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Priming sugar (and units of measure) (Dick Dunn)
ice cider ("White Winter Winery, Inc.")
Making cider in Texas? (Paul Kensler)
Virus Cleanup (jnc1@localnet.com)
priming and yeast (patton@rockisland.com)
Timing (Jason MacArthur)
Raves to 'Somerset Pomona' ("McGonegal, Charles")
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Subject: Re: Priming sugar (and units of measure)
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 13:09:09 -0600
I read and re-read Roy Bailey's note on priming sugar, thinking that it
just didn't make sense. Finally I picked up on one particular comment:
> ...Mention has been made of a 'cup', which doesn't seem
> to be a very precise measure...
There's nothing imprecise about "a cup" ==>in the US<==. I believe the
problem is misunderstanding of measures between US and UK. So let me
lay out the US terms for understanding of UK folks, then we can try it
again and see if we still disagree.
in the US:
A cup is 8 US fluid ounces. A tablespoon is 1/2 fluid ounce, and a
teaspoon is 1/3 of a tablespoon, so 16 tablespoons or 48 teaspoons per
cup. (A US gallon is 128 fl oz or 16 cups.) These are standard kitchen
measures for us.
For convenient conversions, we say a teaspoon is 5 ml and a cup about
240 ml--this is within 2%.
Now, Roy said:
> My advice was based on my experience of bottle conditioning beer, or
> producing a gentle petillance in ordinary (i.e. non-champagne) bottles
> of cider. I don't like my bottles to foam out all over the floor when I
> open them. I would never, as Dick Dunn suggests, use a teaspoonful per
> bottle. That would produce an organic Molotov Cocktail!
Not even close to danger, Roy...IF you figure a "measure" teaspoon rather
than what you use to stir your tea. If you figure 25-30 bottles in a
5-gallon batch (i.e., either standard 750's or the US 22-oz beer bottle)
that's 8-10 tablespoons, or less than 2/3 cup. The starting point of this
discussion mentioned either 3/4 cup for 5 gallons or 1/7 (?!?) cup per
gallon thus 5/7 for a 5-gallon batch. Thus a teaspoon per bottle falls
just below this range, which is why I was conjecturing that was what you'd
meant. It's a common enough quantity; I've used about that much for years
in sparkling mead.
The result, with that level of priming, is somewhat more than "petillant"
but less than what most folks conventionally call "carbonated". For
example it's well under the US legal boundary for the term "carbonated"
applied to an alcoholic beverage. It's also quite safe for beer-type
bottles.
(Note: I don't recommend priming by dosing each bottle...I was just using
the quantity to try to sort out Roy's comments.)
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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Subject: ice cider
From: "White Winter Winery, Inc." <goodmead@cheqnet.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2006 16:45:33 -0500
Does anyone have the specific requirements for making ice cider? (with
fruit hanging till harvest)
what are the harvest temp parameters?
brix requirements?
ABV requirements?
others that I need to know?
Thanks for the help folks!
Jon Hamilton
------------------------------
Subject: Making cider in Texas?
From: Paul Kensler <paul_kensler@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 07:06:45 -0700 (PDT)
Are there any home cider makers in Texas? I used to live "up north"
(Michigan, Maryland) and had no trouble finding local, fresh, unpasteurized
sweet cider to ferment, but I'm now out of apple country (North Texas -
Dallas area).
Does anybody know if there are is any sweet cider to be found within
a day's drive? Oklahoma, Arkansas...? I know I'm late for this year,
but I'd like to start up again next season.
Is anyone on the digest making cider from concentrate, or with any other
method other than fresh apples or fresh sweet cider?
Thanks in advance, Paul McKinney, TX
------------------------------
Subject: Virus Cleanup
From: jnc1@localnet.com
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 20:03:58 -0400
(Reply to Eric Fouch 10/14/06)
Eric, the odds are good that your seedling pears are not
virus-infected. I would suggest you go ahead and propagate as if you
knew they were clean.
There are some labs that will do cleanup on custom basis; I
think the going rate is now up to about $1500 to 3000, with no
guarantee that the procedure would be successful.
However, if you really wanted to do it yourself, most viruses can
be removed by heat therapy. The procedure is too involved to try
without a facility such as that at Prosser, Washington. Reduced to
ridiculous simplicity, here goes:
1) Pot rootstocks;
2) Induce vigorous growth;
3) Chip-bud your pear candidate;
4) After about 3 weeks, cut back to force bud;
5) Put into 170 degree growth chamber;
6) Force growth for about 6 weeks (or conduct funeral);
7) Pull survivors out of the hot box; apologize for bad treatment;
8) Bud onto clean seedlings;
9) From the new propagules, bud onto full spectrum of appropriate
indicators;
(10) If indicators all give negative results, your plants at stage
(8) above are probably clean.
Makes that $1500/3000 price tag look like a bargain.
Jim Cummins
Geneva
------------------------------
Subject: priming and yeast
From: patton@rockisland.com
Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 23:28:16 -0700 (PDT)
My thoughts on a few of the ongoing discussions.
Priming. Here's a good calculator.
[I had to delete the URL, as it's at an infamous spam-hosting ISP and the
URL can cause mail containing it to be blocked.
sorry - janitor]
I'd only use corn sugar. It's readily available to yeast so what you put
in is what you'll get. If by malt sugar we are talking about dry malt
extract, I'd avoid it as a priming sugar as it is quite variable in its
sugar content and sugar makeup. It would also have some definite impact on
color and flavor.
Also, from experience I'd suggest the following. Don't use the bottle by
bottle addition of sugar often suggested. Estimate your volume, dump the
hydrated sugars in an empty vessel and rack your cider into the sugar
vessel. Before you start make sure you don't have a stuck fermentation.
Priming with residual sugar present is a recipe for a big wet glass laden
mess. Hydrometers and/or clinitest tablets are good for estimating
residual sugars. If your cider (wine, beer) has been sitting for awhile,
I'd inoculate again with dry yeast.
Attenuation. As mentioned,attenuation in beer is far more influenced by
sugar composition and levels than by yeast strain. Brewers regularly
adjust sugar make up and attenuation through mash temperature and enzyme
additions. You may find some differences in yeasts as far as attenuation
in cider but sugar composition, yeast concentration, nutrient levels will
also be big factors.
Native/inoculated yeasts. I'm currently working at a custom crush facility
during grape harvest and deal with nearly 20 winemakers. Want to start a
good argument? Mention native versus inoculated fermentations. I've seen
some proponents of native fermentations change their tune real fast when
faced with stuck fermentations and high levels of volatile acidity and
then out comes the dried yeast. But I have no doubt a native fermentation
does provide a more tasty product. I think reusing the yeast from a wild
fermentation would be real problematic. Brewers reuse yeast out of
economic necessity but are also plating, viewing, and often acidifying to
kill lactic bacteria. You might have one great cider and then the next
will let those pesky bacteria do their damage. One interesting
possibility. Yeast purveyors are now providing prepacked dry yeast that
contain both standard strains and isolated native strains.
http://www.thewinelab.com/HansenYeast.htm
Jim Patton
Owl Ridge Wine Services (harvest only)
305 797 1410 (cell)
patton@rockisland.com
------------------------------
Subject: Timing
From: Jason MacArthur <rotread@localnet.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 06:43:23 -0400
One of the (many) areas of cidermaking about which I feel I understand
very little is that of pre-fermentative oxidation. Specifically, what
effects are there on the flavor of the cider from allowing the pomace
to sit for more or less time between grinding and pressing, and from
allowing the must to sit for more or less time after pressing and
before sulfiting and/or the pitching of commercial yeast.
What we have done in the past, what I consider the safest route, is to
grind, press, and sulfite as quickly as possible. This leaves little
time for things to go wrong, but I am beginning to wonder if it doesn't
curtail the development of some desirable "cidery" flavors as well.
What pros and cons are there, from a flavor perspective, from allowing
the must to oxidize a bit? How long do most of you wait between
grinding and pressing, and for what reasons(higher yield, change in
flavor, simple logistics, etc)?
In the past we have had bad luck with wild yeast fermentations, but is
there some middle ground, wherein the cider might sit for, say, a week,
allowing the more diverse wild beasties to do their job and die out, at
which point a commercial yeast would be pitched to clean up? How long
can some of the "higher fruit" flavors persist for in an unsulfited
must?
I am curious to hear different cidermakers practices and thoughts on
this pressing issue.
Jason MacArthur
Marlboro, Vt.
------------------------------
Subject: Raves to 'Somerset Pomona'
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 08:10:39 -0500
Three cheers to Liz Copas' 'Somerset Pomona' - which allowed me to
discover that my Brown's Apple is really Brown Snout. Not a
disappointment - but it really highlights how untrustworthy cultivar
identication is. And 'Apples and Pears as Vintage Fruit' discusses
neither apple mentioned above.
Speaking of faulty ID, does anyone have a clue as to what the
'Fauxwhelp' of the midwest US actually is? My trees put out something
the size and shape of a Wolf River (or Orenco - that is, huge and
crowned) - but is a late-middle harvest, while our Wolf Rivers are early
season, and this apple is more carmine red on a yellow base than Orenco,
which is greener.
Charles
AEppelTreow Winery
"This discussion may also be of some service to the future of Cider, if
it clears up any confusion which may have existed as to the great
difference between a real sparkling Cider, made by the expensive
processes described, and the muddy imitations which, fizzing in beer
bottles, masquerade to the detriment and prejudice of the genuine
product."
Revival of Cider, HP Bulmer & Co. ca. 1908.=20
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End of Cider Digest #1345
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