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Cider Digest #1330
Subject: Cider Digest #1330, 6 August 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1330 6 August 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Discoloration ("Gary Awdey")
Another Competition- Schooner (terry mayne)
input to Cider Digest ("Rose, Timothy")
Apple genetics/pollination (Heron Breen)
SO2 questions (Andrew Lea)
Greening of cider (Andrew Lea)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Discoloration
From: "Gary Awdey" <gawdey@att.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2006 20:36:20 -0400
In CD #1329 Jason MacArthur wrote:
> I know that various metals can cause cider to discolor when exposed to
> air, but can there be other causes of this as well?
<snip>
>According to
> Andrew Lea's website, exposure to copper would be the most likely
> culprit.
Copper may be the most likely culprit but it is not the only one. According
to V.L.S. Charley's "The Principles and Practices of Cider Making" (a
translation of Warcollier's "La Cidrerie") iron may also cause green
disocoloration (Green Breakage) in addition to black discoloration (Black
Breakage). Certain tannates of iron have a green hue. Pectic materials give
some stability to these tannates but if they are present to a sufficient
extent that they do not all remain in solution a green coloration may
result. Warcollier also notes that green coloration of cider can be due to
an enzyme action. "Ferric sulphate behaves virtually as a peroxidase, and
in the presence of highly oxidised forms of tannin, can lead to the
appearance of the olive green color. Ciders can be turned green merley by
the addition of water containing dissolved oxygen and a ferric salt." It's
possible the ferric salt is already present and when you open the cider
you're introducing the final ingredient, oxygen.
For prevention of green cider Charley (Warcollier) recommends:
1. Avoid excessive contact of juice with iron machinery or vessels; the
mills should always be kept scrupulously clean.
2. Avoid contact of cider with unlined cement vessels
3. Avoid use of water rich in nitrates; wash the fruit to memove earth and
organic materials
4. Do not use under-ripe fruit, or apples grown on soils with high iron
content; do not leave the pulp or juice in contact with the air. Adjust the
acidity to a suitable figure and add 50 ppm sulphur dioxide to the fresh
juice.
For treatment when green coloration occurs the same reference suggests
addition of citric or tartaric acids. When this does not work tannin should
be added and the cider aerated. This causes the precipitation of even more
green color, which may then be removed by fining with casein or isinglass.
This treatement may be too much bother, depending on size of the batch, and
is probably no use at all once the cider is already bottled, but there you
have it.
Gary Awdey
Eden, New York
------------------------------
Subject: Another Competition- Schooner
From: terry mayne <tmgrommit@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 10:36:17 -0700 (PDT)
Greetings,
With all the competition talk lately, I hesitate slightly to announce
another. The Schooner Homebrewing Championship www.theschooner.org will
be accepting entries soon. The Schooner is held in conjunction with the
Great Lakes Brew Fest www.greatlakesbrewfest.com and is a BJCP sanctioned
competion that is part of the Midwest Homebrewer of the Year circuit.
Unlike some other fine MWHOBY competitons we accept cider. Not only do
we accept it we encourage it! Last year and this, we have the honor of
having White Winter Winery sponsor the Mead Cup and AEppeltreow sponsor
our Cider Cup. Last year we also had Cider Maker Charles McGonegal of
above mentioned AEppeltreow judge the ciders!
Please check out our web site for rules and applications. We also hope
to see you at the Great Lakes Brew Fest where White Winter and AEppeltreow
will be serving thier award winning meads and ciders!
Cheers
Terry Mayne
Schooner
------------------------------
Subject: input to Cider Digest
From: "Rose, Timothy" <ROSET@si.edu>
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 13:38:37 -0400
Subject: off cider from France and England
From: Tim Rose (roset@si.edu)
Date: Aug. 1, 2006
A few years ago I bought a bottle of Etienne duPont (around alc. 4% and
likely made by keeving) cider to try as my first French cider. A couple
of us opened it and were first impressed by the roiling effervescence
and then by the awful smoky bacon band-aid barnyard bad socks smell and
taste. As we were trying to decide whether to drink the stuff or not, I
did a quick web search and found an old digest entry by Dick Dunn that
said the strong effervescence was a clear indication the stuff had gone
bad, never mind the horrific smell and yes, we did taste it. Just this
past winter I found another Etienne duPont from a more recent year. It
had an ugly looking kinda stringy sediment but I bought it and we opened
it up. It didn't have the impressive effervescence as the previous but
it had the same off smell and taste. Recently an English friend
hand-carried some ciders back for me from her homeland. One was a
Weston's strong Organic cider (alc. 6.5%, contains sulfites). This one
had an initial oak taste that quickly resolved itself into the same off
flavors, although not as pronounced, as the duPont. We were greatly
relieved when our English friend assured us she had never tasted English
cider like that and that it was indeed off. I am curious to know what
happened to these ciders to spoil them? I've made some cider with
really off flavors, but nothing like these.
On a side note, if anyone knows of a good source of domestic and
imported cider in the Washington-Baltimore area, I'd sure like to know
about it. Thanks.
Tim Rose
North Potomac, Md.
------------------------------
Subject: Apple genetics/pollination
From: Heron Breen <breen@fedcoseeds.com>
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 17:40:11 -0500
Hi there,
In regard to the submission about the flesh of apples and pollination,
the inherent flesh
characteristics of a pollinated apple (or any other plant species as far
as I know) cultivar is not affected by the genetic contribution of the
pollen from the pollinator tree. In other words, the apple you eat is not
affected by the pollen, but the seeds definitely are. The white streaks
in Geneva crab are not the effects of genetic material in the pollen. The
white streaks in the flesh are the inherent characteristic of the Geneva
crab, maybe only affected by climate and soil.
Fruit quality, set, and "June-drop", as well as overall disease and insect
resistance for that
specific season can be affected by pollination. "Poor" overall pollination
can result in weak hormonal triggers in some species which inhibits further
complete development of the other pollinated ovaries, meaning some trees
only fully develop the seed capsules (the intent of fruit set) when the
whole tree is "flooded" with a high percentage of pollination triggers
from lots of ovaries. The few naturally seedless apple cultivars that
have been discovered over time have been curiousities mostly, as the fruit
quality was poor. There are some species that can set seeded fruit without
pollination, called apoximis, with hawthorne being a good example. The
seeds sometimes resulting from non-pollination are clonal replications of
the parent tree. Knowing this, folks who wish to propagate a very nice
hawthorne bush may not need to resort to grafting. Bagging the flowers
could result in seeds which if planted can give you the same thing as its
"mother". One would have to play with this a little, but be aware that a
poor pollinator year ie no bees would not mean an option to not bag to get
these clonal seeds. The male mosquito is an avid fan of hawthorne flowers,
and is a apt pollinator. I do not know if all hawthorne species do this.
Flesh color is a genetic trait that probably could be explored more. Albert
Etter focused on
breeding pink fleshed apples. I do not know whether genetics allow for
streaking colors to be altered by breeding. Would a Baldwin (a yellowish
fleshed apple) crossed with the Geneva crab ever yeild a seedling with red
flesh and imbedded yellow streaks? Or a yellow fleshed apple with white
streaks? Probably only one out of a million seeds or even less often?
The chokecherries are bountiful this year, so maybe some wine,
Heron Breen
Maine
------------------------------
Subject: SO2 questions
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 20:42:28 +0100
Ron Irvine wrote:
> I understand that SO2 is derived from sulphur, as part of potassium
> meta-bisulfite, as it changes in an aqueous acid environment. And
> though it is sulfur based, is it still considered sulfur? How is it
> different than elemental sulfur?
Elemental sulfur is just that, a yellow solid with the chemical symbol
S. SO2 is actually a gas which has two extra oxygen atoms and cannot be
generated directly in wine from elemental sulfur. As you say, it is normally
added in the form of the metabisulfite salt which dissociates to give
SO2 in acid solution. Elemental S is often used for dusting wine grapes
to protect against mould during growth. This is not done with cider
apples AFAIK. Residual elemental S can cause some sorts of taints in
wines. But they are not related to the use of SO2.
> I understand its role as an anti-oxidant, anti-septic, anti-oxidasic
> and refresher.
That is what SO2 does. It has a variety of actions and is used before,
during and after fermentation for a variety of reasons. But each action
you have listed is distinct.
> I believe the EU limit for Total SO2 is 250ppm for table wines. That
> must be a measurement of remaining salts in the wine (or cider), I
> assume.
Yes but it is calculated as SO2. The wine is strongly acidified to
liberate the gas from the salt and also from its bound forms with eg
acetaldehyde - the SO2 gas is then boiled out and collected and
determined chemically. The 250 ppm is expressed as SO2, although it is
true that most of it in the wine is in a salt or bound form.
> Also, why does sulfur create a more negative reaction than carbon?
I don't understand the meaning of the question. Sulfur dioxide in its
free form can be a problem to some people with asthma which is why its
presence must be indicated (US and EU) on the bottle. Most SO2 in cider
before fermentation actually becomes bound to other components and free
SO2 is not usually detectable unless deliberately added at bottling.
> Separately: What do the English call a product that is made out of
> berries that no sugar has been added to, but allowed to ferment
> naturally, like cider?
We don't have such products. In England, almost the only fruit with
sufficient sugar to ferment to a 'wine' on its own (apart from grapes)
is the apple. People who make 'country wines' from other fruits e.g.
elderberries always have to add sugar. Of course, global warming may
change all that!
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Greening of cider
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 22:02:33 +0100
Jason McArthur wrote:
>
> I know that various metals can cause cider to discolor when exposed
> to air, but can there be other causes of this as well? This year
> bottles from one of our batches of cider become light green after
> being opened for several days, and develop some off flavors as well.
> According to Andrew Lea's website, exposure to copper would be the
> most likely culprit. Yet I have racked my brain and cannot think of
> any copper this cider could have been exposed to. None of our other
> batches do this, and yet all have been ground, pressed, racked, and
> stored using identical equipment.
This is an interesting one. Although direct complexation by copper or
iron is the usually attributed cause, 'greening' of bottled ciders when
opened has been known from way back and has also been attributed to the
action of nitrite on polyphenols and subsequent reaction with iron to
form a green adduct. This is described in Warcollier's Book (Charley's
translation as Principles and Practice of Cider Making 1949). [He also
published a paper on it in 1914 but I have never been able to get a
copy]. The chemistry is not at all clear but to my knowledge at least
one commercial UK cidermaker in recent years had this problem and
ascribed it after investigation to make-up water containing higher than
usual nitrate / nitrite levels (his metal levels were well within normal
tolerances). Warcollier suggests that there may be sufficient nitrate in
the fruit itself. The effect might therefore be specific to individual
batches of fruit.
I have seen this effect myself at a cider festival and since it takes a
few minutes to occur after the glass is poured it is almost certain that
oxidation is involved. I suspect that metals at low levels are involved
in some way too, though maybe not as obviously as the classical
'blackening' due to high levels of iron or copper. It could be quite
complex; reduction of nitrate to nitrate, and ferric to ferrous, could
take place during fermentation and /or in the reducing conditions of a
bottle. Then, when air is admitted, coupled oxidation and the formation
of a transient green complex colour might be the result. It is also
known that coloured complexes can be formed by the reaction of oxidised
polyphenols (quinones) with certain amino acids (which just might be
cultivar specific). The effect in cider remains something of a mystery
and has not been covered in modern literature so far as I know.
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1330
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