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Cider Digest #1348
Subject: Cider Digest #1348, 31 October 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1348 31 October 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Pear pressing (Claude Jolicoeur)
Re: Liberty apple (Claude Jolicoeur)
Re: Roxbury Russet - experience? (Claude Jolicoeur)
Roxbury Russet (Jason MacArthur)
question (Denise Elliott)
Cider Day 2006 (Benjamin Watson)
Roxbury Russet and Liberty (Benjamin Watson)
Cider Day is coming soon ("Jay Hersh aka Dr. Beer(R)")
Liberty Apples (efreeburg@aol.com)
Carbonation in French style ciders (Donald Davenport)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Pear pressing
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 00:38:11 -0500
There has been some interest in past digests for pear mixed with apple for
cider. I have finished pressing my pears and here are the results for some
of my varieties.
For each, I am giving the spefific gravity (S.G.) of the juice, the
titrable acidity in percentage, expressed as tartaric acid (i.e. tested
with standard acidity kits sold in all wine making stores), and the yield
calculated as the weight of the juice divided by the weight of the pears.
All pressing was done with a small rack press with a 4 ton hydraulic jack.
Grinding was done with a home built shredder, fairly similar to the ones
sold with most presses, except that it is driven by an electric motor.
Some batches were not ground, but had been frozen and pressed sometime
between 12 and 24 hours after removing from the freezer.
So, here we go:
Pressing session Sept 29 and 30:
Winnal's Longdon : picked Sept 17; S.G. 1.060, acidity 1.5%, yield 49%.
Pears were very small and underripe. Extremely bitter juice.
Thorn : picked Sept 17; S.G. 1.060, acidity 1.3%, yield 50%. Pears had
turned yellow but were still firm - perfect timing. Bitter but fairly good
juice.
Golden Spice : picked Sept 17; S.G. 1.066, acidity 0.8%, yield 57%. Pears
were ripe and firm - perfect timing. Delicious juice, nicely balanced.
Luscious : picked Sept 17; S.G. 1.058, acidity 0.3%, yield 65%. Pears were
just right. Juice good, mainly sweet, no bitterness.
Harrow Delight : picked Sept 2 and frozen Sept 16 overripe; S.G. 1.054,
acidity 0.4%, yield 77%. These pears were almost blet when put in the
freezer, it would have been almost impossible to press them in that state.
Juice very good, mainly sweet without bitterness.
Patten #1 : picked Sept 17 and frozen the same day still hard and green;
S.G. 1.048, acidity 0.2%, yield 69%. Juice rather bland, not very good.
Pressing session Oct 14:
Patten #2 : picked Sept 17 and frozen on Oct 8 overripe; S.G. 1.054,
acidity 0.15%, yield 73%. Juice much improved compared to Patten #1, sweet.
Naturally, the data given here is strongly related to my growing conditions
and pressing equipment - other growers could have completely different
results. It is however interesting for comparisons between varieties.
First interesting comment - the huge difference in acidity between perry
pears (Winnal's Longdon and Thorn) and table pears which are essentially
sweets. And the Golden Spice is in between the 2 groups. Here I have to say
I was wrong when I wrote a few digests ago that I thought Luscious might
have enough acidity to make a well balanced perry. It certainly doesn't
have enough.
Second iteresting comment - there is a big difference in yield between the
batches that had been frozen (69 to 77%) and the batches that were ground
fresh (49 to 65%). I like very much to use the freezer in replacement for
the grinder. It permits so salvage some overripe fruit that would be very
hard to press the normal way. But the timing is important - fruit has to be
pressed long enough after removing from freezer so that it has thawn, but
not too long as it may become too mushy.
Personnally, my preferred pear for juice and cider is the Golden Spice. I
really love it...
Claude Jolicoeur
Quebec.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Liberty apple
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 01:22:37 -0500
In Cider Digest #1347, 30 October 2006
>Subject: Liberty apple
>From: Bradley and Caitlin Hunter <hunter@midcoast.com>
>Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 09:44:56 -0400
>
>Then a friend with a lovely organic orchard a few towns away said he
>had 6 trees of Liberty apples that were loaded with fruit but were
>probably not going to get harvested , so did I want them?
>
>So, although technically not a single variety cider , it is
>predominately Liberty and I'll be curious to sample the finished
>product. Initial tasting at pressing time was very encouraging and
>I'm wondering if any one out there has experience with this variety?
>
>Any comments or suggestions are welcome.
Brad,
I have a very nice 15 year old Liberty tree that produced 4 Bu this year. I
like the variety although I think the Cortland is slightly better. Liberty
juice usually is between S.G. 1.055 and 1.060 depending on the year, with
acidity between 0.7 and 1%. Cortland has slightly higher S.G. (avereage
1.060 to 1.062) and also slightly higher acidity. But for cider, Cortland
has a little tannic on the tong that Liberty doesn't have. For juice, my
children prefer the Liberty. I just bottled tonight a cider from last year
that is 60% Cortland and 40% Liberty and really nice...
Claude
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Roxbury Russet - experience?
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 01:05:41 -0500
In Cider Digest #1347, 30 October 2006
>Subject: Roxbury Russet - experience?
>From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
>Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2006 19:18:12 -0600
>
>The apples appeared ripe but still
>pretty tart; the measured results squared up: 3.2 pH, SG 1.080 (right
>about 20 Brix).
Dick,
In the past, I had some Roxbury, but it didn't grow well in my climate.
Only one year I had enough apples to make a juice test, and after that, it
died. The apples were very small, 2 in. avereage and were quite scabby. You
may not believe it, but this juice tested at S.G. 1.096! with acidity of
1.6%. Unfortunatly, it is hard to compare pH with titrable acidity, but
both numbers (yours and mine) indicate quite high acidity. This S.G.
reading is the highest I have ever seen - I did recheck my hydrometer to
make sure I was not dreaming...
So, I am not surprized by your numbers. Another sharp russet that I have
and that grows well in my orchard, the Belle de Boskoop, also produces
juice with S.G. around 1.075 with high acidity.
Claude
------------------------------
Subject: Roxbury Russet
From: Jason MacArthur <rotread@localnet.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 06:01:03 -0500
Dick Dunn wrote:
> Do folks in other areas see the acidity on RR drop more as they ripen?
> or are they really that sharp at full ripeness? Do you get that much
> sugar?
Here in Vermont our Roxbury's don't have that much sugar; we typically
see a gravity around 1.070. We don't measure acidity but it is not a
sharp apple when grown here, almost to a fault. The cider is full
bodied and rich, often noticeably alcoholic. RR produces some very
distinctive aromas which are noticeable even when RR makes up a small
percentage of a juice blend, aromas which some people like and some
people don't.
I don't have much experience growing them, so I can't comment on the
acidity level over time as they hang on the trees. In terms of when
to harvest, someone once told me that the old-time cider makers around
here picked their Roxbury Russets in the snow!
Jason MacArthur
Marlboro, Vt.
------------------------------
Subject: question
From: Denise Elliott <delliott1@rochester.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 07:06:44 -0500
I have been scanning around on the internet trying to find out what I
should do next with my batch of cider. When I put it together I
didn't "look before you leap" and I purchased 5 gallons of
unprocessed cider and dumped in 5 lbs of sugar per cornell
recommendations. I added Pasteur Champagne Yeast (one dry packet) and
have kept it at 68*f. It has been fermenting like crazy for three
weeks now, no bad smells. And here is my dilemma. I plan on bottling
this as a sparkling cider. MY OG was at 1.064 and right now sg is
1.046. I know it will be awhile till it finishes fermenting. If I
drop in campdens tablets when I am at the desired SG will that kill
off so much yeast that I can't bring it up to sparkling when I prime
my bottles? Any one have any suggestions? Should I be allowing it to
ferment at a lower temp? I have a root cellar that stays about 50*
year round.....Thanks for any help you might be able to give
Denise
Upstate NY
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Day 2006
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 07:28:19 -0500
My sincere apologies to all the Cider Digesters for not beating the
gong much earlier concerning this years' Cider Day in western
Massachusetts.
This weekend, Saturday, November 4 and Sunday, November 5, the 12th
annual Cider Day will take place at various orchards and venues in
Franklin County, Massachusetts, a historic apple-growing region just
west of Greenfield, Mass. This has become one of the most interesting
cider and apple festivals in North America, and every year there are
workshops on cider making and appreciation from luminaries like CD's
Gary Awdey. Our redoubtable Cider Janitor, Dick Dunn, has attended at
least twice, I believe, though he says he can't make it this year
(we'll miss you Dick).
Many of the events are free, with self-guided tours of the region's
orchards and free workshops of all kinds, a self-guided tasting on
Saturday from Lou Chadwick, a Buckland, MA orchardist who brings dozen
of varieties of heirloom and uncommon apples for sampling or purchase.
Lots of folks bring samples of their own homemade cider too, for
sharing in workshops or a surreptitious sip over the tailgate. Another
CD stalwart, Claude Jolicoeur, gave me a bottle of his cider, which
proved that (at least in Quebec) Cortland makes a very drinkable
single-variety cider, in the right hands. I learn something every year.
Some of the featured events this year will include a Southeastern apple
tasting on Sunday at the Deerfield Inn, with heirloom varieties
provided and introduced by Tom Burford, aka "Professor Apple," who is
an author and orchard consultant for Monticello, among other clients. I
will be helping with another edition of the popular Artisan Cider and
Cheese Tasting in the same place.
On Saturday we will hold a European styles panel, featuring
prototypical examples of ciders in the UK, France, and Spain/Euskadi,
with a variety of cider producers offering typically wry commentary.
Following this, we'll all gather at the historic Hall Tavern in Old
Deerfield for the popular Cider Salon, where this year folks will be
able to sample the products of 15 cideries from all over the US. It's
the largest and most comprehensive collection of American ciders in one
place at one time. This year the up-and-coming Midwest cideries are on
display, led by special guests Charles and Milissa McGonegal, who will
be on hand this year to show the flag for their Aeppel Treow Winery.
Following the Cider Salon on Saturday we will once again hold our Cider
Dinner, which has become very popular as well (good food, to soak up
all that good cider). And, as always, home cider producers can get
really good juice for future fermentation from the local orchards --
even some winemaking material and a lot of expertise (or at least
opinions).
All in all, it's a lot of fun, and a real celebration of American
artisan cider. We even see the odd British visitor to the event.
(Sorry, I think I just called Andrew Lea odd, which he isn't -- he was
our honored guest in 2005).
For a complete schedule, directions, etc., go to www.ciderday.org. I
hope to see many Cider Digesters there; I'll be the one running around,
pulling out what remains of my hair.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Roxbury Russet and Liberty
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@worldpath.net>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 07:48:19 -0500
Great Cider Digest this time. It's always fun to hear what people are
picking and fermenting this time of year.
As to Dick's experience with Roxbury Russet, I have never used it as a
single-variety, but I did try a batch last year with 40% Rxobury, 40%
Black Oxford, and 20% Calville Blanc. Good acidity and a lot of sugar
in that batch -- specific gravity was around 1.070; I didn't measure
the acidity, because I knew it would be healthy with the addition of
Calville.
I started this batch right after New Year's, on 1/8, and I suspect that
the Roxbury was pretty mellow at that point (it will store into March,
at least, around here). I used a Lalvin R-2 (Sauternes) yeast as an
experiment, despite the dire warnings from people on the Digest that it
would develop a smell like the sulphurous emanations of H-E-double
hockey sticks. So far I haven't noticed that at all, perhaps because of
the long cool fermentation.
If I had been smart, I would have bottled the stuff at the end of
February, when I measured S.G. at 1.012 and the cider had fallen clear
and had a pleasant floral, fruity nose and had a nice residual
sweetness. However, since this was an experimental batch, I racked it
and let it sit around in bulk until a couple weeks ago. It still tastes
pretty good, though not as light and fruity, and will probably improve
with bottle aging.
If I had my choice, I would probably pick Golden Russet over Roxbury,
though a 2001 single-variety batch of GR had roughly the same profile
as the Roxbury juice blend (S.G. 1.070 and 0.69 total acidity). Don't
know why, really, except that my tastebuds perceive GR as slightly
"cleaner" and more straightforward than RR. Maybe it's the "nuttiness"
factor than Dick mentioned; I tend not to like "nuttiness" or any
unusual flavor in my finished cider, which is why I don't use Pomme
Gris to any great extent.
As to Liberty, I haven't used it to any great degree, but will be
interested to hear what it does as a single-variety cider. I think it
has some degree of tannin, more than most North American dessert
apples, but my rather strong prejudice against using too much McIntosh
or Macoun, etc. in my press schedule makes me shy away from it.
However, I'm constantly surprised by what yeast, fermentation
conditions, and skill or luck can do for an unpromising juice.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Day is coming soon
From: "Jay Hersh aka Dr. Beer(R)" <jsh@doctorbeer.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:29:05 -0500
For those in the Mid-Atlantic and New England regions, the Cider Day event
is coming up this weekend. See www.ciderday.org
This is an annual event that covers many heritage apple varieties, presents
chances to taste them, teaches about making cider, and in general has lots
of fun and educational content. This year includes the first ever cider
dinner (extra cost).
I'm completely unaffiliated with the sponsors of this event, though I do
know some of the presenters for some sessions. I'm just a happy repeat
attend that thought others with common interest should be aware of the event.
cheers,
Jay H (Cider Digest Founder)
------------------------------
Subject: Liberty Apples
From: efreeburg@aol.com
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 11:14:00 -0500
Brad writes-
"So, although technically not a single variety cider , it is
predominately Liberty and I'll be curious to sample the finished
product. Initial tasting at pressing time was very encouraging and
I'm wondering if any one out there has experience with this variety?"
I love the Liberty apple- it makes great cider at least when grown
organically in SW Wisconsin. I happened upon it some years ago in search
of an apple that might contain a little tannin. It seems to have very
little tannin actually, but the flavors remaining after fermentation are
cider like (very reminiscent of the sweet cider) and it has nice balance
on the palate- though I did add some acid. It's the only cider of my 6 or
so varieties fermented last year that made it into bottle on its own and
completely dry. I also fermented Priscilla and Novamac from the same
orchard with approximately the same basic numbers. They were good but
not really stand alone.
The Liberty fruit came in around 12 brix with a pH of 3.8 in 2005. I added
2 g/liter malic acid sulfured and settled before fermentation.
I pressed some Liberty fruit this year from a different source- Maiden
Rock Orchards in western WI and the numbers were 11.5 brix and pH of 3.6.
That fruit had been through a hard frost but seemed to have weathered it
very well.
Why it makes a really nice cider I do not know. I think the addition of
crabs will improve it however.
I've been thinking about cider way to much- I dreamt that I'd located an
apple variety named Justice and was sure I could make a nice blend called
Allegiance cider.
I hope to meet some of you in West Mass. this weekend.
With Liberty and Justice for All,
Eric Freeburg
Minneapolis MN
------------------------------
Subject: Carbonation in French style ciders
From: Donald Davenport <djdavenport@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 12:10:24 -0700
While I'm eagerly waiting for my bittersweets to bear enough fruit to
try it, allow me to toss out a question about "French" style ciders.
If the goal is to starve fermentation by defecation, such that you end
up with a naturally sweet or semi-sweet cider, why does the official
judging guidelines indicate that high levels of carbonation are
desirable, let alone possible?
The BJCP states that the carbonation level should be "moderate to
champagne-like." I could imagine getting a little prickle from a
small, residual fermentation once the cider has been bottled (and I
believe MLF does generate a little CO2 as well), but it seems unlikely
you're going to get a "champagne-like" carbonation naturally, without
ending up with bone dry cider, which then means you've defeated the
whole reason for keeving/defecation in the first place.
Hope this doesn't seem like a really dumb question, but high
carbonation and starved-off fermentation with residual sweetness seem
mutually exclusive, especially when it seems the whole point of French
style is to been as "natural" as possible (i.e. ambient yeasts, no
sulphites, no fining additives, etc.)
It seems odd that it would be frowned upon to add even tiny amounts of
meta, but then subject your lovely, virgin cider, innocent as Joan
D'Arc, to the "tank."
What am I missing? (Probably a lot.)
Thanks,
Donald Davenport
Santa Fe, NM
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1348
*************************
