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Cider Digest #1332
Subject: Cider Digest #1332, 19 August 2006
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1332 19 August 2006
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Don and custom pressing (Bill)
starting an orchard from scratch (Seth Jones)
UK Perry Event/Display ("chris horn")
CD 1331 - Custom Pressing ("Uncle John's Cider Mill")
custom pressing ("Mark Parranto")
Re: Rates for custom pressing (Terry Bradshaw)
FitzMill (Andrew Lea)
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Subject: Re: Don and custom pressing
From: Bill <squeeze@mars.ark.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 09:30:34 -0700
Aside from the hard labor required for custom pressing, there is
definitely a liability/health issue - you'll find the business is
federally regulated at the least, probably some state health dept regs
involved too - no grounders allowed for one
I earn a good portion of my income from custom pressing, in an area with
lots of backyard trees and a lot of old homestead orchards - dealing
with hordes of folks who don't have a clue about growing apples or even
what's involved in food production, you get loads of rotten windfalls,
over and under-ripe fruit, and folks who think cuz it's *their* apples,
you shouldn't charge anything for the juice, or that you should take
some of their rotten stuff as payment and be happy to get it, and you
should do theirs right now while they wait, and they have an appointment
in 20 minutes
That aside, I enjoy it ... harvest season ... kids learning about the
process ... hundreds of different varieties coming by to try out, but
it's definitely hard work and even if you get folks trained to bring
only picked sound fruit, you still have to inspect every one - only
takes one stone embedded in a grounder to bugger the equipment
I charge by the juice out - so much per liter [gallon for you I
suppose], and they have to bring their own bulk containers, or use 5
gallon "loaners" that have to be back by the next day - if you have a
decent setup, expect a gallon from 14#, so if you charge $2/gallon, that
means to earn $100 you have to handle at least 700# and you'll
lift/move/throw that 700# at least 3 times - figure out how much you can
press in an hour/day [with all the interruptions involved in a
business], and how much exercise you need, and charge accordingly - if
they don't like it they can build their own equipment!
good luck,
Bill <http://mars.ark.com/~squeeze/>
------------------------------
Subject: starting an orchard from scratch
From: Seth Jones <sethjones@earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:18:08 -0400 (EDT)
Though this is not directly about cider, I make hard cider and am planting
a number of cider apple trees. I have a piece of land that I recently
cleared and am planning to plant with apple trees. The site is a sloping
hill which was pretty damp so I've tiled it and it seems to be drying nicely.
I will be using mainly M111 rootstock and some antonovka as I have a pretty
extensive amount of clay in the soil. I will also be mounding the soil for
the trees to help them out. The Ph is around six so I am working lime in
to nudge it up a bit. My question is about groundcover. There seem to be
a lot of different philosophies and I would like to hear recommendations
from the members since I am really starting from bare soil. I would like
to seed soon for the fall and am trying to put a plan together. All advice
would be welcome. Also any sources to check would be great.
Thanks
Seth Jones
petersburgh, ny
------------------------------
Subject: UK Perry Event/Display
From: "chris horn" <agent_strangelove@hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:43:41 -0700
A number of the perry pear growers and perry producers are putting on a
Presidium or display event at the Malvern Show Ground (Malvern,
Worcestershire, UK) during the Autumn Show Sept. 23rd and 24th. The event
is still in the planning stages but currently is set to include a Perry Bar
(manned by the producers concerned), tutored tastings and workshops that
will incorporate a "Peoples Choice" competition, 'expert-led' walks through
the National Collection of Perry Pears orchard that is on the show ground
and other static perry-related displays.
I have been asked to see what I can do about gathering product and setting
up a small display on American perry. The guys over there realize that we
don't have the history and huge old trees that they can draw from but they
are still interested in having a few bottles of American perry present with
some form of display. This is a very opened end sort of thing but it is
along the lines of Slow Foods and such. So even if you are not using
traditional perry pears, it would still welcomed. I am, thus looking for
commercially produced fermented pear products to be displayed. I may also
solicit a photo or two of different folk?s orchards, equipment etc....
Please drop me a note off list if you wish to contribute to this effort...
Thanks
Chris Horn
Scappoose Oregon USA
'You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it
turns out that God hates all the same people you do.'
~Anne Lamott
------------------------------
Subject: CD 1331 - Custom Pressing
From: "Uncle John's Cider Mill" <cider@ujcidermill.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:05:30 -0400
Don Davenport asks about Custom Pressing in 1331
In most States making fresh juice and selling requires a license. (Dept of
Ag/ health dept/ etc.) Many states have also made it very difficult to do
custom pressing. In Michigan this requires a documented, complete cleaning
and sanitization of pressing equipment between apple lots. Dept. of Ag
inspectors in MI diligently look for unlicensed mills and regularly inspect
mills and lab test juice from licensed proprietors.
-Liability- Almost all of the new rules have come about since the 96'
Odwalla Incident. There certainly is a risk (extremely low) of
contamination. There are numerous Federal/University Research Papers that
have been published about those topics.
There are Federal Rules that all Juice Makers (very small to very large)
must conform to. Check em' out at the FDA.Gov website.
It is a slippery slope here in the great lakes fruit belt.
In a somewhat related matter. Juice makers in New York have been given a 1
yr. extension before all juice makers are required to pasteurize. There is
a few juice makers that are trying to get the law repealed in NY. If you
live in New York, please let your elected officials know that you want to
have the ability to buy unpasteurized juice.
Sorry for standing on the soap box.
Mike Beck
UNCLE JOHN'S CIDER MILL &
FRUIT HOUSE WINERY
www.ujcidermill.com
------------------------------
Subject: custom pressing
From: "Mark Parranto" <applewood@frontiernet.net>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:04:04 -0500
Donald Davenport asked about offering his press to others for pressing. You
should check out the regulations on HAACP and Pasteurization at
www.cfsan.fda.gov
for further information. You would be exempt if you sell juice at retail,
but if you custom press for others then you are required to pasteurize among
other things. I'm not sure how "renting" your press to others would fall in
the regulations, but you can bet that the FDA will take the most inclusive
definition that they can. Check it out before you do anything further.
Mark Parranto
Applewood Orchard
applewood@frontiernet.net
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Rates for custom pressing
From: Terry Bradshaw <terryb@lostmeadowvt.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:49:52 -0400
I am in a similar situation with a press that should eventually well
outpace my own production. I am looking at a few options. First, I
plan to squeeze juice for cidermakers and offer it with the proper
labeling and signed affidavits that it is designed for fermentation,
not fresh consumption. Sort of like the label on a package of meat
that says you need to cook before eating. Fruit will come from my
own orchard or commercial vendors where I can have a paper trail
leading back to the necessary good agricultural practices. I
eventually plan to get into offering fresh juice, but I need to do a
few more things to ensure compliance with HACCP and the standard
sanitary operation procedures (SSOPs) this sounds like a lot of extra
unnecessary hassle, and may be, but my proximity both professionally
and geographically (eight miles to the State Dept of Ag office)
requires that I dot my i's and cross my t's. I can't afford
pasteurization equipment and don't really want it, so any direct
sales of fresh juice will be just that- direct to the customer with
no middle man. I may need to look at product liability insurance,
we'll see. That phase is at least a year down the road.
As for custom pressing, I would also like to get into it but I would
really like to have, at minimum, some kind of fruit washing system in
place. I'm kicking myself for not picking up a small brusher-washer
that a local out-of-business orchard had available for $500, but I
was tied up in getting the press running at that time. I still may do
it at some time and follow up all fruit squeezes not from my own
sources with an affidavit system at least outlining the food safety
issues involved, and a vigorous scrub of the press after each load of
fruit. We'll see. That said, I have done a couple of custom squeezes
for a friend, and did not charge. As for charges for custom squeezing,
I would think (I'm not a lawyer)
that not charging will open you up to a little less liability, but
the FDA juice rule really is a sticky one. Were I to be charging I'd
look for at least $1 per gallon, with a minimum fee of maybe
$25. That depends on the time you spend and what your time is worth.
Realistically you could probably get away with a lot less than I plan
on doing, so long as the juice you squeeze for others is not destined
to be resold. Once a middleman is in place, i.e. you sell your juice
through a retailer, to a restaurant, etc. or you squeeze for another
orchard that will sell the juice (making you the middleman) the HACCP
and pasteurization requirements come into play. Regardless, you
should consider that liability for any illness falls solely on you,
and not on the person who may have brought you fruit that had dropped
in cow patties.
Probably more than you wanted to hear.
Regards,
TB
>With my pack press about finished, (and with the yield from my young
>orchard likely to be processed in a day or two) I've been kicking
>around the notion of offering the cider press for some custom work.
>Lots and lots of backyard orchards in Santa Fe. No small pressing
>operations nearby that I could find (hence, the need to build my own.)
>I rather imagine I'd get quite a few takers.
>
>I really have no idea what to charge or how to structure the service.
>(Does a client need to pre-wash his/her apples, for example?) Is it
>charged by the hour? By the bushel (with some kind of minimum)?
>Should I consider offering anything in addition to the basic pressing
>service? Containers?
>
>And what about any liability issues? Do any of you do anything to
>protect yourselves against the kid that gets the flu and his parents
>claim its really ecoli from your press?
>
>Granted, I'm talking really small scale. But if I could make enough to
>keep me in cider-making supplies, meet some interesting people, take a
>modest write-off for some of the expenses, it'd probably be worth it.
>
>Or am I opening a really nasty can of worms?
>
>Thanks for any advice.
>
>Best,
>
>Don Davenport
------------------------------
Subject: FitzMill
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 23:30:03 +0100
Shawn asked
>
> Has anyone used or seen a Fitzpatrick FITZMILL used for grinding
> apples? They are a fair bit more expensive than a Bell hammer mill,
> just wondering if they are worth it.
I have used a FitzMill often for grinding dry food materials - usually
with water cooling through the block to prevent the material burning
from frictional heating. But I never used one for apples and never
heard of anyone doing so. I can't imagine it has any advantage over a
regular hammer mill (generally people think that scratter or grater
mills are best for apples anyway).
It's a weird beast with a reversible
head and different pulley sizes that either cuts or hammers (knives or
fixed 'stair-head' hammers) depending on how the head is mounted. I
suppose if you could get hold of one cheaply and wanted to experiment
with different head configurations and screen sizes, it would be
worthwhile, but I can't help feeling there are more cost-effective
options just for apples. I would worry you might end up with apple
sauce rather than small nuggets of pulp. They are robust though. The one
I used about 10 years ago was manufactured in the 60's but we could
still get spare parts and support from the local UK agent even 30 years
on. The design seemed almost unchanged from its introduction about a
half-century ago.
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
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End of Cider Digest #1332
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